Eternal Fire SAVES not TORTURES

[JPD]

The Emperor Justinian was the greatest of the Eastem (Byzantine) Emperors. He reigned from 527 to 565 in Constantinople. In the year 534 he published in fifty volumes the world famous "Justinian Code" of Laws, which was a digest of the Greek and Roman constitutions, ordinances, and legal decisions, culled from two thousand manuscript volumes, forming the basis of most medieval and modern codes of law.

In the year 540, Justinian arranged for the calling together of the famous local council of four years later. He was determined that certain doctrines must be suppressed.

In particular, he wished to make it very plain that the life of the saints was to be ‘everlasting,’ and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise.

In setting forth the orthodox position of the Church of that time, he did not say, "We believe in eonian punishment," as this was exactly what Origen, three hundred years before, had maintained and believed. In fact, Origen, who exulted in the truth of the reconciliation of all, definitely used the word “eonian” with reference to fire and doom as meaning a limited time.

But writing in the very expressive Greek language, Justinian stated that;

"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."

Yet Justinian knew quite well that “eonian” by itself did not signify “endless,” and therefore added a word, the meaning of which is quite unequivocal, a term NOT found in the Scriptures. This letter of Justinian, still in existence, ought to convince anyone who is in doubt, regarding the true scriptural meaning of the word “eonian.”

The above tract is taken from the following link;

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article7_eternity.html

...And so, the once held belief that Christ would save ALL by the means of his "Gehenna Fire/Lake of fire" came to a dramatic end.

Chastising - (bringing into correction all men) became Torture.

A definitive "age" became - unending.

Saving by fire became suffering by fire.

Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's WORK of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:13-15)


1. "and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

2. "…they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

Yes, it was once taught that is was NOT the PERSON that was burnt in judgement - it is the WORKS of the person. The end result being "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15)

How times have changed. Has the Church as we know it, slidden further into apostasy as Christ predicted? (Luke 18:8) More than Likely.

 

[JoJo50]

It’s so easy to understand Jehovah God never created a “hellfire” or a place where demons tortured the wicked dead, (Gen.2:17). Many are taught the wrong meanings of what Jesus said concerning “hell” (Matt.5:29, Matthew 5:21-23, and Matt.25:41). As I’ve asked many times concerning Matt.25:41, if hell suppose to be a place where demons reside, and wicked dead are tortured. then why did Jesus say an everlasting fire would be waiting for them?

2Thess.1:9 -Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.(here the word everlasting is mention again, but this time, with it says “destruction” fire represents just that, no one will burn in fire).

Psa.16:8-11- shows David ,(a faithful man) ,talks about God not leaving his soul in hell, not even to see corruption, (decaying). Notice David saying… “my flesh also shall rest in hope“ (if the false teachings of hell was a place demons torture the wicked and sinners, why would David say “his flesh shall rest? Hell wouldn‘t be in a place of resting).

Jonah 2:1,2- Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.( was Jonah being tortured by demons?, was there fire in the fish belly?…no).

We pay for our sins once we die ,(Rom.-6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord), which would make no sense to believe, God still sends the “wicked” to a fiery place. He wouldn’t be a loving God, in fact he would be what he hates from us, a liar, which he NEVER is. peace
　
　

 

[Gareth]

For certain, in time all peoples actions will come under the scrutiny of the Great Judge. But we must be not misled into thinking that God holds back punishment from those to whom it's deserving. This is shown in verses from Rev. 20. God promised Satan he would be bruised in the head all the way back in Eden, which is stating that within the course of time Satan will exist no more. The passage of time that has passed by since then has been long and arduous for the human family.

But there is a reason why God has taken all this time. He doesn't see it as we do. The Bible says He wants all to live, not die (2Pet. 3:9). But for some death or everlasting destruction is the only cure-all. This is where Satan, the Demons and all that makes up his system including death itself will end up.

The lake of fire is symbolic. We can be sure of this because Satan is a spirit creature, so literal fire cannot hurt him neither can it hurt death. In addition nowhere in Revelation do we see that the lake of fire gives up those dead in it, unlike Hades and Death do. In death there is no feeling of pain or suffering (Ec.9:5), no conscious thought or actions. It is a state that God reserves for all the things that have blighted mankind. There is no resurrection from this place, so when all who enter here are there, they will not come back. No Satan, none of his Demons or his institutions including death will make a return to disrupt the peace and harmony that all people who serve God will have.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

How times have changed. Has the Church as we know it, slidden further into apostasy as Christ predicted? (Luke 18:8) More than Likely.

Yes it has, by things such as what you have posted. I'll rely on the Word of God myself. btw-are you trying to get a THIRD thread locked? Keep it up...

 

[JPD]

Yes it has, by things such as what you have posted. I'll rely on the Word of God myself. btw-are you trying to get a THIRD thread locked? Keep it up...

The things that I have posted are but a brief insight into some forgotten Church history. A viewpoint about the lake of fire not often discussed and a scripture regarding Christs expectation of His Church on his return. He's expecting 'faith' to get worse, NOT better. I'll rely on Christs Word myself.

If people remain cordial, polite and respectful and not personal, there's no reason for this thread to be closed. This subject raises issues that cannot be discussed in Church circles. If you don't want to join the discussion - don't post on this thread. Simple.

Cheers

 

[gasman64]

The lake (pond) of fire is where the works of man or the 'carnal' is purged from us all. Just like the refiners fire, where wood hay and stubble are consumed. All men must face this purging. So then we may 'all' stand before the throne of grace. Maybe some will stay a little longer than others, but we 'all' will take a dip.

 

[gasman64]

Yes it has, by things such as what you have posted. I'll rely on the Word of God myself. btw-are you trying to get a THIRD thread locked? Keep it up...

Are you afraid of the enlightened truth? Do you believe that nothing is open to be challenged? Do you have all knowledge? What say you put down your spear and learn a little something. If you believe your faith is strong then it should hardly be able to be moved by a contrary opinion. And if it is backed up by sound scripture then maybe you need to be a little more flexible. You never know how God chooses to speak to you.

 

[he-man]

In particular, he wished to make it very plain that the life of the saints was to be ‘everlasting,’ and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise. But writing in the very expressive Greek language, Justinian stated that; "The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."
And so, the once held belief that Christ would save ALL by the means of his "Gehenna Fire/Lake of fire" came to a dramatic end. Chastising - (bringing into correction all men) became Torture. A definitive "age" became - unending. Saving by fire became suffering by fire.
1. "and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Yes, Indeed, the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]βασσνισθησοντσι to rub to test the purity is applied to the meaning of judged by fire.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. [/FONT]

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zec 13:9[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rev 3:18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, andthe shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. [/FONT]

[/FONT]Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Are you afraid of the enlightened truth? Do you believe that nothing is open to be challenged? Do you have all knowledge? What say you put down your spear and learn a little something. If you believe your faith is strong then it should hardly be able to be moved by a contrary opinion. And if it is backed up by sound scripture then maybe you need to be a little more flexible. You never know how God chooses to speak to you.

Enlightened truth? You mean that of Rob Bell and his ilk who insist that all will be saved in the end and 'hell' in scripture really meant the local garbage dump? I can do without that enlightenment. Funny thing is that concept of 'hell' (Ghehenna) as referring to the Hinnom Valley where the locals burned their garbage may have been used only as an analogy (if this is true at ALL). Also, the first reference to the Hinnom Valley as the local garbage dump is from the middle ages (A.D. 1200) and even THAT writer states it is only an analogy for hell. Scripture clearly states that all are not going to the same place in the end. It is false. I am assuming that we all read scripture here so I will not belabor all of it, but here is a favorite of mine:

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God". (Heb. 10:26-31, ESV).

However, I am confident, as a brother in Christ, that we will see each other if we continue to encourage each other in our walk with Him and share the Good News of the Gospel, just as we are instructed to do. God bless.

 

[JPD]

It has been my understanding for a while now that the translators got it more than wrong on this one. It should have been left as "Gehenna" not Hell. “Gehenna” (the valley of Hinnom – rubbish dump of Jesus’ day) has nothing to do with “Hell” at all.

Jesus’ use of “Gehenna” is not a warning of “Hell fire” for the sinning masses. It is a message for his disciples. And how do we know this? Because Jesus was addressing the disciples ONLY in His Sermon on the Mount. Jesus WAS NOT addressing the Pharisees, or Sadducees, or the Priests, or Scribes, or even the multitudes.

"...and when He was set, His DISCIPLES came unto Him" (Matt. 5:1)

None of these groups followed Jesus up the mountain, but rather waited for His return. So all the following...

"And if YOUR right hand offend YOU, cut it off, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples of Mine] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body should be cast into hell[Gehenna fire]" (Verse 30).

...is about a higher standard of calling for HIS followers, not a warning about “hell” The sinning masses NEVER heard a sermon on “Gehenna.” In fact the only other people that did, were the Pharisees: Matt. 23:15 and verse 33 (both the same occasion.)

"Gehenna" talks of judgement, that is for sure – but the judgement is directed at HIS disciples, HIS church. In fact his use of Gehenna is only ever directed at the “House of God!”

“Gehenna” ought no more to be translated “Hell” than should Sodom or Gomorrah. In fact Jesus and James are the only people in all the New Testament who used the word. John Baptist, who preached to the wicked didn’t use it once! Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it! Peter does not name it, neither does Jude and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never uses it once! The reason? Well, Gehenna doesn’t mean “hell.” In fact it would have been a useless analogy for “hell” as no-one outside of Jerusalem would have known what the heck Gehenna was.


“Gehenna fire” – like all uses of fire in the scriptures, is the symbol of God purifying the heart and minds of Men, especially his church - the refiners fire that purges everything carnal. Scripture talks of this purging all the time. Character flaws of the mind and spirit are going to be burned out of all of us, that’s for sure. God will either BURN OUT these filthy impurities from our hearts and minds NOW (in His Church –i.e. sermon on the mount) or He will BURN THEM OUT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE – but not to torture, to chastise.

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THEFIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

"Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BYFIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

In all my debates with people, no-one and I mean NO-ONE has been able to explain why at judgement day ( 1Cor 3:13) its NOT the PERSON being burnt in judgement - it is the WORKS of the person. "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15) They are SAVED by the lake of fire, which the church teaches will torture them endlessly.

Maybe that’s because Paul had a different view on God’s judgements than the church does today?

 

[JPD]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Yes, Indeed, the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]βασσνισθησοντσι to rub to test the purity is applied to the meaning of judged by fire.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. [/FONT]

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zec 13:9[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rev 3:18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, andthe shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Psa 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. [/FONT]

[/FONT]Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

That's an impressive list of scriptures there. Now, is it the works that get destroyed or the man himself? It can't be both - otherwise the scriptures would contradict. One is either destroyed by fire, or saved by fire as Paul contends. I would suggest that if we take ALL the scriptures (the whole counsel of God) - it is the later that concludes the purpose of God's vengeance and Judgement especially considering that it is "the living God, Who is the Saviour of all men, especially (his church) those that believe" - (I Tim. 4:10)

 

[he-man]

That's an impressive list of scriptures there. Now, is it the works that get destroyed or the man himself? It can't be both -

The question is " How many times do you wish to die if you are not a believer?"

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 4:10
For this we are slandered and a contender, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour forever of men, yea, of those that believe.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who believe on him might not perish, but have life eternal.

18 He that believes on him is not adjudicated: he that believes not is adjudicated already, because he has not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[JPD]

The question is " How many times do you wish to die if you are not a believer?"

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


1Ti 4:10
For this we are slandered and a contender, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour forever of men, yea, of those that believe.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who believe on him might not perish, but have life eternal.

18 He that believes on him is not adjudicated: he that believes not is adjudicated already, because he has not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about "Dying" even in this life time - How does one "die to the flesh" or "crucify oneself" without actually dying? Well, it's surely symbolic not literal. When you last sinned with your eyes - did you literally pluck them out with a spoon? Of course not. I would suggest that these scriptures talk of something symbolic also.

Having said all that. Is Paul right or wrong in saying that ALL at judgement will be saved? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

By the way, the proper rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 states ALL! (Gk 3956 Pas) "Pas" always means ALL in the Greek.

 

[he-man]

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about "Dying" even in this life time - How does one "die to the flesh" or "crucify oneself" without actually dying? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (2) For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

By the way, the proper rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 states ALL! (Gk 3956 Pas) "Pas" always means ALL in the Greek.

Then you do not know Greek the word used in 1Tim 4:10 is παντων and παν is also used in the manuscripts as short for Spirit.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G3956 παν πας all; πάντα everything, ever, forever; πάντες πάσα πασος everyone, everybody (not ‘all’) as manγ as[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Having said all that. Is Paul right or wrong in saying that ALL at judgement will be saved? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

 

[gasman64]

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

I have never seen any indication that he is a Rob Bell follower and I think it behooves you to be a little more respectful and less prone to baseless accusations. The scriptures state 'all' many times. I think you will find there are plenty of people who believe that besides Mr.Bell. I for one have never read his book.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I have never seen any indication that he is a Rob Bell follower and I think it behooves you to be a little more respectful and less prone to baseless accusations. The scriptures state 'all' many times. I think you will find there are plenty of people who believe that besides Mr.Bell. I for one have never read his book.

Fine, let me expand my argument (i.e. reasoning) then. All universalists (including Mr. Bell and the OP) are wrong. 'All' will not be saved. You JUST won't find it in the bible. But thanks for correcting me. I'll try to watch my wording next time to make it more palatable.

 

[gasman64]

I believe all will be saved. I see it as very obvious in the bible. But I don't consider myself to be a universalist. I have seen the arguing between both sides and don't want to be labelled with either side because that belittles much of other things that I believe. And what I believe is just too big to be confined to a silly label and my belief is far greater than just one issue. Perhaps you may feel the same.

 

[JPD]

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

Sigh you might, I’m glad you’re still on this thread lol! Any attempt of mine to address this stuff has come to an abrupt end due to people being far too trigger happy on the report button....so I’m glad we can have a discussion before the axe falls again! Now bare with me, I’ll keep this as short as I can as I fear you may have lost patience with all this. I’ll try not to bore you in the process.

Now, Rob Bell – there’s a man stuck between a rock and a hard place huh. Poor Rob Bell, If you’re gonna say something – you can’t do it by halves....it’s a shame really – he started on the right track alas he didn’t go anywhere near far enough in explaining his wishy washy theology. However, he’d be the recipient of far more venomous attacks than I’ll ever be on this forum....but I digress.

Now. I’m really glad you highlighted the fact that Paul was associating fire with the judgement of the church and its works in 1 Corinthians 3:13 because this verse is crucial to my arguments about Gods dealings with mankind.

Is this verse addressing the church? Absolutely! Yes, this verse is directed at the church and yet – make no mistake about it “the day” (Hemera GK 5610) mentioned here can only relate to “one day” in scripture and that day is the day of judgement. That Paul is addressing believers here, there is little doubt – yet the context is in reference to the same judgement, the same PROCESS that befalls all men.

Why is this verse so important? Because this is the ONLY verse in all the N.T. that describes the NATURE of Gods “fire” in judgement. And it is also the only “spiritual” witness to the verses of Revelation that talk about “the day.” It is with this very verse, that I feel that the Church has completely lost sight of a truth rarely taught.

For all the carnal nonsense preached by the Church about “the day,” - judgement, torture and suffering - this is assuredly the same day and the same PROCESS that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 3:13.

"and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

2. "…they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

Make no mistake, be it believer or sinner – it is the WORKS that are judged and BURNT and it is the MAN that the FIRE saves;"but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15)

But this is where I can’t help but shake my head at the Churches’ teaching about all this. Let’s look at 1 Cor 3:13-15 a little more closely.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (Judgement Day) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, you mentioned Gal 5: 19-21 in relation to those people and the people (that display those carnal/evil WORKS) that surely “will not inherit the kingdom of God".

The Church teaches that if someone doesn’t “inherit the kingdom” he is “unsaved” and “damned” for eternity. Now here is the irony in all this. If you contend that 1 Cor 3:13 is about believers ONLY, we have a huge problem. One can’t “suffer loss” – (and there can only be ONE LOSS here and that “loss” is “inheriting the Kingdom”) and STILL be saved?!?!

The Church teaches that if you don’t inherit the kingdom – you’re a gonner! Yet here we have a verse (the only verse that witnesses to Rev and “works”) that states IF YOU DONT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.....YOU STILL GET SAVED.....AND SAVED BY FIRE OF ALL THINGS!

How can a Believer “suffer loss” and be saved then? Well, he shall be saved alright - by FIRE, along with all the other sinners who lost out on the Kingdom? They’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth alright – by the BELIEVERS Who’s works fell short! It’s not the sinning masses who “miss out.” Which brings me to my next point.

I firmly believe and contend that when the scriptures talk about the “Loss of the Kingdom” – it is talking about the loss of the chance to “rule and reign with Christ.” It is NOT about the masses getting boiled alive in lava forever and ever!

This is why I believe that “the lake of fire saves and not tortures.” A further irony in the churches view of judgement is that they happily contend that they’ll “rule and reign with Christ” but by their logic, THERE’S NO-ONE LEFT TO RULE AND REIGN OVER.

"And the leaves of the tree (the Word of God) are for the HEALING OF THE NATIONS" (Rev. 22:2). Blessed day! Blessed deliverance! Long milleniums ago the prophet Jeremiah saw this day in spirit and rejoiced: "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and ALL NATIONS SHALL BE GATHERED UNTO IT, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart" (Jer. 3:17).

And there’s the proof. I could give you dozens of verses that show the end result of God’s purging by fire – but this one will do. After judgement – EVERYONE who “walked after the imagination of their evil hearts” will be cured, turned and converted – BY THE LAKE OF FIRE.

And how?

for when THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:8-9).

The inhabitants of the world can’t learn righteousness in hell now can they? How do they learn righteousness? Well, those who “rule and reign with Christ” (those who didn’t suffer loss) will teach them!

It is only by the sinning masses of humanity being thrown into the lake of fire that “....THE WHOLE EARTH SHALL BE FULL OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:2-9).

Jesus’ Gehenna fire was a heads up to the disciples.

Pauls message (1 Cor 3:13) was a heads up to the believers in Corinth.

Revelations (written for the 7 CHURCHES ie the whole church) is a heads up for us.

The Bibles teaching on judgement is about being called and chosen to rule and reign with Christ over the rest of sinning humanity, to teach them righteousness. It’s NOT about 1% being saved and 99% of humanity getting tortured forever in hell.

It’s the only way all the scriptures make sense and If I may be so bold, I can prove this on every point.

 

[he-man]

For all the carnal nonsense preached by the Church about “the day,” - judgement, torture and suffering - this is assuredly the same day and the same PROCESS that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 3:13."and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8. 2. "…they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.
Make no mistake, be it believer or sinner – it is the WORKS that are judged and BURNT and it is the MAN that the FIRE saves;"but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15)

You must mean the chaff that he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which died through Jesus will God bring with him

What then does consuming mean?
"I would not have you to be ignorant brethren," for our God is a consuming fire and He is eternal which means His fire is unquenchable or as άσβεστος asbestos inextinguishable.

The eternal chastisement is to never see the face of God again, that is, the unquenchable fire, which is annhiliation, for all eternity, as "total destruction" or "complete obliteration"; having its root in the Latin nihil (nothing). A literal translation is "to make into nothing".

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:8,9

Lu 3:17 His winnowing-spade in his hand, he will will gather the seed1 into his repository through purging and cleaning his floor, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
1* Greek σείτος σιτάρι seed; cereal; wheat