ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF SAVING FAITH

[Mark Quayle]

What did Jewish people in the first century believe about individual responsibility?

Did they believe; mature adults did not really have some limited free will to make choices they could personally be held accountable for making, since that is what comes across in the OT and the NT. If that is not true then where is the teaching against it?

Irrelevant to your argument, what they believed. But to the notion that there is such a thing as 'limited free will', show it to me, with precision of meaning —no sloughing— without a contradiction between "limited" and "free".

The idea of whoever, who, whosoever, a person, he who, a man and so on is saying the person themselves made a choice, which that person can be held accountable for making. It is not suggesting in any way those God chose to make the choice, made the right choice.

HOW is it saying the person made a choice? I'm not saying that one doesn't choose; I'm only saying you have no argument here. If one believes, there is no necessary implication that he believes by choice.

The “whoever” sometimes makes bad choices and sometimes good choices, so is God making the choice for whoever good choices and the whoever making bad choices made them on their own or did God make those choices also. The same word is used so how are good choices God’s manipulation and bad choices man’s manipulation for “whoever”

Once again, God's predetermination of all things does not negate man's choice. I have yet to hear you deal with the hierarchy of causation.

That is a possibility. Jesus is using the word “work” in a unique way here and is playing on their understanding. The meaning is still: “They are commanded to believe (have faith in) the one God sent.” Now if having faith in the one God sent is something God does for them, then Jesus is asking them to do something some will not be able to do, so why is He telling all of them to do it?

The command does not imply the ability to obey. Sorry.

This “father” in this story is not an actual person talking, but he is representing God and Jesus will have him saying what God would say in that situation or Jesus is misleading us.

OK this brings up another topic. Paul tells us: Acts 17: 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.

I do not go along with the doctrine of original sin, so every child starts out sinless (a child of God) and at maturity sins and follows satan by choice.

The son got himself in a situation which finally brought him to his senses on his own. He can still make the choice of: being macho, hanging in there, taking the punishment he fully deserves, not pestering his father further, not fueling his brothers contempt and starve to death in the pigsty or he can wimp out, give up on self and surrender to the father he has been hating.

These points of coming to our senses can happen many times and we have to make the choice, hopefully before we reach bottom in the pigsty of our life.

The “regeneration” comes with the father running to him to shower him with gifts and now the son experiences a real contrast in his life.

I am not saying the selfish nature of the young son changed when he came to his senses, the son selfishly wanted to go on living with some kind of livable life. He did nothing commendable, honorable, righteous, worthy or holy in his returning to the father for a job he did not deserve. The young son was just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as chrity and had faith the father he knew might just provide such charity.

Granted that the father in the story represents God, IF one must take the parallels that far. But that doesn't mean that 'dead' there is the same 'dead' as Ephesians 2 and Romans 8 refer to. To me, contextually, it means something like, 'as good as dead' as is commonly meant. As far as I can tell, Jesus isn't indulging in word-play here.

Soldiers, who surrender still hate their enemy and would love to see their enemy destroyed and they are at that point still soldiers of satan, just not battling at the moment (the human part of satan’s army are mostly lazy and poor soldiers thinking about themselves).

You just restated what I had just said, but in your words. Maybe even in more profound sounding words!

How does this advance your argument? Such a soldier is in their heart still at enmity, even as you said, so his surrender is mere intellectual acknowledgement that he had been beat. His heart has not surrendered. This is not faith, not Biblical submission.

 

[bling]

They weren't righteous on their own merits. Our father in the faith, Abraham, was justified by his faith in God's promise, not his own righteousness.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings

Ro. 4: 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Ro. 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The faith of these heroes in the Old Testament is what result in them being righteous. It does not say God imputed Christ righteousness to them. The things they did as a result of faith, shows their faith and it is not said they had faith in what Christ did because Christ had not done it yet.

Before the cross it was the cross that still justified. Noah, Abraham, Moses, all wretched sinners without any righteousness to call their own. Noah was a drunk who cursed his grandson, Abraham lied, Moses murdered and was forbidden from entering the promised land by disobeying God. King David was an adulterer and a murderer. Solomon a womanizer and idolator.

Luke 18: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Jesus gives us this parable and in keeping with all Jesus’ parables this could really happen. This is before Christ going to the cross and the tax collect does not address anything about Christ, yet he “went home justified before God”. It was on the faith of the tax collect, trusting God’s mercy.

Name any of the saints who came before Christ and I will show you a sinner who was righteous only on the basis of God's mercy on account of Jesus Christ and His righteous and atoning work. His life, death, and resurrection alone is righteousness before God.

Do you believe God can forgive sins, without needing help and more Love, even without needing Christ to go to the cross? If you feel God does need help, does this not show a weakness with God?

It is written, "There is no one righteous, no, not even one" and "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." There are no exceptions except one, and His name is Jesus Christ the Son of God. The only righteous human being to have ever walked the earth.

-CryptoLutheran

If your sins are forgiven, are you not than righteous (without sin)?

 

[bling]

Irrelevant to your argument, what they believed. But to the notion that there is such a thing as 'limited free will', show it to me, with precision of meaning —no sloughing— without a contradiction between "limited" and "free".

I learned early on the five most important aids in interpreting scripture are: context, context, context, context and context.

HOW is it saying the person made a choice? I'm not saying that one doesn't choose; I'm only saying you have no argument here. If one believes, there is no necessary implication that he believes by choice.

You have already sluffed off the truth behind a free will offering, just being “the amount given was just up to the individual”, but if it is up to the individual is it his choice on what he will give and not someone else making his choice?

You are right, God does not open the head of a person and tell us where to find inside the brain the free will cells, He planted in all mature adults. It cannot be scientifically “proven” beyond any shadow of doubt man has free will, but we can look to scripture to determine if some autonomous free will is required for man to achieve man’s objective and assume God would have to provide that amount of free will.

First off: If some limited autonomous free will is required for some humans to fulfill their earthly objective, does God have the power and Love to provide such a gift.

Once again, God's predetermination of all things does not negate man's choice. I have yet to hear you deal with the hierarchy of causation.

We have discussed this before: “hierarchy of causation”, does not negate God having the power and Love to provide mature adult humans with some very limited ability to be a first cause, just as there does not have to be only one singular “first cause” for everything, God can intervein in the universe as a first causer many times, breaking the sequences of events which would have existed from just one initial first cause.

How does this advance your argument? Such a soldier is in their heart still at enmity, even as you said, so his surrender is mere intellectual acknowledgement that he had been beat. His heart has not surrendered. This is not faith, not Biblical submission.

You are correct in saying “it is not Biblical submission” and “his heart has not surrendered”, the surrendering soldier of satan, does not have the Godly type Love to submit to God. All he needs is a very little “faith” in God’s Love to hope that God will not immediately destroy him and just might provide him with a little undeserved charity and he must have the “humility” to be able to humbly accept needed charity as charity.

 

[bling]

Romans 5: 17
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of RIGHTEOUSNESS there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made RIGHTEOUS. 20

Christ brought righteousness to those who believed in Christ, but prior to Christ coming others had been righteous by their faith in God. Righteousness is a gift which comes as a result of man's faith, but man's faith does not equal righteousness. Today the gift of righteousness is gifted to us because of our faith in Christ, but prior to Christ going to the cross people had faith in God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings

Ro. 4: 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Ro. 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

All of which points to Christ. Why was Abel commended as righteous? Was Abel's sacrifice simply more worthy? Was Abel simply a better person than Cain? Or does the author of Hebrews here, as is his point throughout the entirety of the epistle, to point to Christ as the hope and fulfillment of the ancient faith of the patriarchs and prophets?

And concerning Paul in Romans speaking of Abraham, read more, it is for Christ that Abraham is held up as an example of faith. What does the Lord Himself say, "Abraham looked forward to My day". How did Abraham look forward to Christ? Faith, faith in the promise of God that Sarah would bear a child, the promise of God that Abraham would be a father of many, that there would come through Abraham the promised Seed--and Who is Abraham's Seed? Who is Abraham's Offspring? Thus we have become children of Abraham through faith, for Abraham looked forward, in faith, to Christ. So Abraham was reckoned justified. Reckoned justified on whose account, his own? No, but rather on Christ's account.

"You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me." - John 5:39

In Abel's faith, here is Christ.
In Abraham's faith, here is Christ.

It is Christ toward whom Abel and Abraham anticipate, and thus it is Christ who came, Christ who lived, Christ who died, and Christ who rose who makes righteous both Abel and Abraham. It was not their works which justified them, but the Son of God Himself who has made righteous the unrighteous. For Abel was no less a sinner than his brother. Abraham was no less a sinner than the pagans in Ur of he Chaldeans. For Abel is the son of Adam and Eve, even as Abraham is the son of Terah, the son* of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son* of Seth, the son of Adam and Eve. Sinners. Sinners in need of the righteous Savior.

*E.g. descendant of

The faith of these heroes in the Old Testament is what result in them being righteous. It does not say God imputed Christ righteousness to them. The things they did as a result of faith, shows their faith and it is not said they had faith in what Christ did because Christ had not done it yet.

"Abraham looked forward to My day" - John 8:56

Without Christ their faith would mean nothing. "There is salvation in no one else, there is no other name under heaven by which anyone may be saved." -Acts 4:32

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by Me." -John 14:6

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through Whom He made the world. He is the radiance of God's Hypostasis and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"- Hebrews 1:1-4

"Now in putting everything in subjection to Him, He left nothing outside of His control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to Him. But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
...
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that He helps, but He helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore He had to be made like His brothers in every respect, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." 0 Hebrews 2:8-11, 14-17

"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the Law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the Law brings wrath, but where there is no Law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to his offspring--not only to the adherent of the Law but also the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, 'I have made you the father of many nations'--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, and he had been told, 'So shall your offspring be,' He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what He had promised. That is why his faith was 'counted to him as righteousness.' But the words 'it was counted to him' were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in Him who was raised from the dead, Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." - Romans 4:13-25

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--for sin indeed was in the world before the Law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no Law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the One who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one Man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one Man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the Law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace super-abounded, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:12-21

Luke 18: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

And why was the publican justified? Because of his own righteousness? Then he would be just as bad as the Pharisee bragging of his righteousness.

What is the justice of penitence? Self-righteousness? No, but righteousness from God.

"For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

For the Law is a tutor that leads to Christ, the Law increases the trespass (and for this reason none can be righteous by adhering to the Law), but it is Christ alone who is righteous and gives righteousness to those who believe. The publican, penitent, stands before God an empty-handed beggar to receive what God gives. And that is on Christ's account alone. Else the publican is saved merely by his own works, is justified by his own works, and is just as self-righteous as the Pharisee. It is in knowing and confessing that he is a sinner that he, having been brought to his knees in repentance, that He now stands before God naked, empty, and thus to be filled with the righteousness of God.

Jesus gives us this parable and in keeping with all Jesus’ parables this could really happen. This is before Christ going to the cross and the tax collect does not address anything about Christ, yet he “went home justified before God”. It was on the faith of the tax collect, trusting God’s mercy.

We are talking about Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). What happened on Mt. Calvary stands at the center of history, backward and forward.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." - Ephesians 1:3-10

Do you not know that in God's love before the countless ages began to exist, you were loved by God and chosen in Christ, for in Christ were all things made, for all things were made "by Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16-17), and that from before all ages it was in God's love that you should become His child through faith in Jesus Christ? He who is Word Eternal (John 1:1) is "the Same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and thus you were there upon Mt. Calvary with Christ as is made known to you and confessed and shown you by your very baptism which you received (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-15).

From before all things you are known by God, loved by God. It was for you that the Son of God became flesh and bore your sins on His cross.

Do you believe God can forgive sins, without needing help and more Love, even without needing Christ to go to the cross? If you feel God does need help, does this not show a weakness with God?



If your sins are forgiven, are you not than righteous (without sin)?

God is in need of nothing. But the way God has chosen, from before all ages, to redeem and heal the world and bring all sinners to Himself, from Adam until the end, is Jesus Christ who suffered and died for all of us, that none should perish.

He is the Chief and Prototokos over all creation, by whom and for whom all things were made. The Eternal Word, who became flesh. The Savior of the world.

This is Good News.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If your sins are forgiven, are you not than righteous (without sin)?

Simul iustus et peccator. I am righteous because God declares me righteous on Christ's account, and I have received Christ's righteousness, thereby I am justified and called a saint for Christ's sake alone. But in and of myself I am a wretch who fails to do what I ought to do, and does what I should not do. As are we all.

As long as sin exists in this mortal body I am a sinner and full of sin. I will only be free of this once it has come to pass, "Death is swallowed up in victory" when "this mortal is clothed with immortality, and this corruptible is clothed with incorruption". For I am, body-and-soul, a sinner, of myself dead and with nothing to boast of before God.

The Apostle has written, "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." - Philippians 3:12

Without presuming to judge anyone else, I will speak only for myself: If I believed that I were sinless and righteous by my own righteousness, I would be forfeiting the faith and betraying the cross and choosing the smooth pavement toward hell. For how can I boast before God when I am nothing but a beggar? The only clothing I have are what God has clothed me with, He brought me to His banqueting table and clothed me with the clothes of His justice and kindness, and seated me down at His Table. I am nothing without Him, I have nothing apart from Him. I am desperately sick and have life only because the Good Physician tends to me in the hospital bed of His Church with the medicine of grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

All of which points to Christ. Why was Abel commended as righteous? Was Abel's sacrifice simply more worthy? Was Abel simply a better person than Cain? Or does the author of Hebrews here, as is his point throughout the entirety of the epistle, to point to Christ as the hope and fulfillment of the ancient faith of the patriarchs and prophets?

The writer of Hebrews is pointing to the need for faith at any time and all the time. It was: “By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did.” It was not faith in Christ nor was Cain’s worthless sacrifice for lack of faith in Christ. 1 John 3:12 “And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.”

John tells us: Abel’s actions were righteous and did not say Abel believed in the Christ.

And concerning Paul in Romans speaking of Abraham, read more, it is for Christ that Abraham is held up as an example of faith. What does the Lord Himself say, "Abraham looked forward to My day". How did Abraham look forward to Christ? Faith, faith in the promise of God that Sarah would bear a child, the promise of God that Abraham would be a father of many, that there would come through Abraham the promised Seed--and Who is Abraham's Seed? Who is Abraham's Offspring? Thus we have become children of Abraham through faith, for Abraham looked forward, in faith, to Christ. So Abraham was reckoned justified. Reckoned justified on whose account, his own? No, but rather on Christ's account.

"You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me." - John 5:39

In Abel's faith, here is Christ.
In Abraham's faith, here is Christ.

It is Christ toward whom Abel and Abraham anticipate, and thus it is Christ who came, Christ who lived, Christ who died, and Christ who rose who makes righteous both Abel and Abraham. It was not their works which justified them, but the Son of God Himself who has made righteous the unrighteous. For Abel was no less a sinner than his brother. Abraham was no less a sinner than the pagans in Ur of he Chaldeans. For Abel is the son of Adam and Eve, even as Abraham is the son of Terah, the son* of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son* of Seth, the son of Adam and Eve. Sinners. Sinners in need of the righteous Savior.

*E.g. descendant of

All these references to Old Testament heroes’ faith, help point us to Christ, but that does not mean their faith was in Christ, since they new only God’s Love, mercy, forgiveness and righteousness. They prayed to God for forgiveness and not to the Christ, and the idea of the trinity is not taught in the OT as far as I can tell.

"Abraham looked forward to My day" - John 8:56

Without Christ their faith would mean nothing. "There is salvation in no one else, there is no other name under heaven by which anyone may be saved." -Acts 4:32

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by Me." -John 14:6

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through Whom He made the world. He is the radiance of God's Hypostasis and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"- Hebrews 1:1-4

"Now in putting everything in subjection to Him, He left nothing outside of His control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to Him. But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
...
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that He helps, but He helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore He had to be made like His brothers in every respect, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." 0 Hebrews 2:8-11, 14-17

"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the Law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the Law brings wrath, but where there is no Law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to his offspring--not only to the adherent of the Law but also the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, 'I have made you the father of many nations'--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, and he had been told, 'So shall your offspring be,' He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what He had promised. That is why his faith was 'counted to him as righteousness.' But the words 'it was counted to him' were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in Him who was raised from the dead, Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." - Romans 4:13-25

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--for sin indeed was in the world before the Law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no Law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the One who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one Man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one Man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the Law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace super-abounded, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:12-21




And why was the publican justified? Because of his own righteousness? Then he would be just as bad as the Pharisee bragging of his righteousness.

What is the justice of penitence? Self-righteousness? No, but righteousness from God.

"For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

For the Law is a tutor that leads to Christ, the Law increases the trespass (and for this reason none can be righteous by adhering to the Law), but it is Christ alone who is righteous and gives righteousness to those who believe. The publican, penitent, stands before God an empty-handed beggar to receive what God gives. And that is on Christ's account alone. Else the publican is saved merely by his own works, is justified by his own works, and is just as self-righteous as the Pharisee. It is in knowing and confessing that he is a sinner that he, having been brought to his knees in repentance, that He now stands before God naked, empty, and thus to be filled with the righteousness of God.



We are talking about Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). What happened on Mt. Calvary stands at the center of history, backward and forward.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth." - Ephesians 1:3-10

Do you not know that in God's love before the countless ages began to exist, you were loved by God and chosen in Christ, for in Christ were all things made, for all things were made "by Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16-17), and that from before all ages it was in God's love that you should become His child through faith in Jesus Christ? He who is Word Eternal (John 1:1) is "the Same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and thus you were there upon Mt. Calvary with Christ as is made known to you and confessed and shown you by your very baptism which you received (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-15).

From before all things you are known by God, loved by God. It was for you that the Son of God became flesh and bore your sins on His cross.



God is in need of nothing. But the way God has chosen, from before all ages, to redeem and heal the world and bring all sinners to Himself, from Adam until the end, is Jesus Christ who suffered and died for all of us, that none should perish.

He is the Chief and Prototokos over all creation, by whom and for whom all things were made. The Eternal Word, who became flesh. The Savior of the world.

This is Good News.

-CryptoLutheran

You keep throwing up this straw man argument suggesting I am teaching; man being sinless, righteous and justified, through man’s “works” and/or ability. We are made sinless, righteous and justified as a result of our faith being counted as righteousness, being forgiven and justified by God. Any “good” we do is the result of us; just allow the indwelling Holy Spirit to do good through us, so we cannot “boast”, in that.

Talking about how sin was handled before and after the cross, brings up the huge topic of atonement, which I could write a book on. It is a very misunderstood topic with lots of just theories trying to explain it, all the popular explanations have huge problems.

Romans 3:25 does address the specific issue of before and after the cross, so I will try to briefly explain:

Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Lets look at the rest of the passage:

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive/accept that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified). So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

Have you ever stopped to think about what Christ went through while on the cross because of your actions personally?

 

[bling]

Without presuming to judge anyone else, I will speak only for myself: If I believed that I were sinless and righteous by my own righteousness, I would be forfeiting the faith and betraying the cross and choosing the smooth pavement toward hell. For how can I boast before God when I am nothing but a beggar? The only clothing I have are what God has clothed me with, He brought me to His banqueting table and clothed me with the clothes of His justice and kindness, and seated me down at His Table. I am nothing without Him, I have nothing apart from Him. I am desperately sick and have life only because the Good Physician tends to me in the hospital bed of His Church with the medicine of grace.

-CryptoLutheran

You are at the party now and the host want you to stand comfortably by Him, so what would make you feel comfortable standing by Him? Knowing you have been totally forgiven and your sins will not be held against you, would help, but what else might you like?

Luke 17: 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

If we from conversion did everything perfectly right, we would still have done only the minimum requirement, so we who mess up, fall way short of that.

Like child, who has been forgiven, we also need to humbly accept our fair/just/Loving discipline hopefully with the father or his representative participating in the disciplining with us. (like our being crucified with Christ).

Righteousness and justification are total charitable gifts given to those who trust (have faith) in God/Christ, but being gifts, we take possession of these gifts and they become ours (our righteousness and justification. Be ours, we can give them up.
I like and agree with what you are saying here.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Before we continue, I want to address this specifically:

"The writer of Hebrews is pointing to the need for faith at any time and all the time."

Because it sounds to me as though you are arguing that faith, generic faith, is rewarded by God. You say Abel had faith by showing the better sacrifice, and thus was righteous.

So let's explore faith with a series of questions that I hope will allow us to narrow some ideas down.

If I have faith that, ultimately, Odin will slay my enemies on Ragnarok, will God credit that to me as righteousness?

If I have faith that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet and that the Qur'an is the final and full revelation of God to mankind, will God credit that to me as righteousness?

If I have faith that if I try to live a good life to the best of my abilities, because it is written, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." that this will be credited to me as righteousness?

If I have faith that Jesus was a very holy man, a prophet, and was the son of God by virtue of His obedience to the Torah, will that be credited to me as righteousness?

Is Christ necessary for salvation? Is Christ necessary only now, but not before? Does Christ only become necessary once we learn about Him? How does this work in your soteriological system exactly?

I'm not asking, "Can a person who never heard of Jesus be saved" I'm asking if Jesus Christ Himself and what He did necessary for a person to be saved. Or not?

Because at this moment it sounds a lot like you believe that Jesus is merely one way which God uses to save people, but that there could be many different ways for a person to be saved that don't involve Jesus at all. As such you see in the examples of Abel and Abraham examples of a salvation apart from Christ, but which involves faith. And ergo my curiosity: Faith in what? Anything?

Or is it not faith itself that is important, but rather what faith leads to, namely that faith justifies because posessing faith leads to obedience, and it is that obedience that constitutes righteousness? And thus a person is righteous on the basis of their obedience to God which comes from a place of faith? As that seems to be what you've been driving home at.

And if it is our faith-based obedience to God that makes us righteous, then perhaps you could explain how that isn't works?

Do you regard as "works" only some human activities but not other human activities?

At this point I want to apologize, as I do not intend to use a Gish Gallup, but I have genuine questions. I'm simply not sure how to read your posts and conclude that you don't believe that we are saved by our own works; in fact that we are saved by our works alone; and grace is merely an aiding force that helps us along the way.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are at the party now and the host want you to stand comfortably by Him, so what would make you feel comfortable standing by Him? Knowing you have been totally forgiven and your sins will not be held against you, would help, but what else might you like?

Luke 17: 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

If we from conversion did everything perfectly right, we would still have done only the minimum requirement, so we who mess up, fall way short of that.

Like child, who has been forgiven, we also need to humbly accept our fair/just/Loving discipline hopefully with the father or his representative participating in the disciplining with us. (like our being crucified with Christ).

Righteousness and justification are total charitable gifts given to those who trust (have faith) in God/Christ, but being gifts, we take possession of these gifts and they become ours (our righteousness and justification. Be ours, we can give them up.
I like and agree with what you are saying here.

But that's just it, God declares me forgiven, and so I am.

I was locked in prison and the Judge in the courtroom declared me pardoned of all my sin. Why? Why did the Judge declare me pardoned? What did I do to be declared pardon of all my crimes? And what sets me free from the prison? Do I break the prison door with my own strength, do I just believe the door isn't there? Or does someone come and unlock the door and say, "The Judge declares you pardoned of all charges" and I walk out of that cell a free man entirely without having done anything to earn that pardon?

So I am at the banquet, how did I get in? I am at the table, how did I get there? What clothes am I wearing? My filthy clothes or new clothes which were given to me? Did I clothe myself or was I clothed by another?

I maintain that that the preaching of the Gospel means the keys have come and unlocked the door, the Court took place on Mt. Calvary where Judgment took place and I was declared pardoned of everything--from which the authority of the keys come. That I was released from the prison, and though naked and filthy in the prison, I was bathed and clothed with new clothes. I did not clean myself, I was cleaned by another, I did not clothe myself, I was clothed by another--I am wearing someone else's clothes, they do not belong to me, they were given to me. I am escorted and brought to the banqueting hall and given a seat of honor because I have the garment given to me, because of the position given to me. I am declared pardoned, I am clothed with a righteousness that is not my own, I am adopted into a house which I was formerly estranged from. The Father calls me "son" because I wear the garment of His only-begotten Son. I am therefore a joint-heir with the Son, I am a younger brother of the Son, I am in the Son's Father's house, I am seated with the Son at His Table, I am beside Him, with Him, and have all of this because everything that belongs to Him by virtue of Who He is and What He is, and all that He Himself has done by Himself, that He says, is mine.

I was dead laying on the side of the road, having been assailed by robbers. A levite and a priest walked by and did nothing. But a Good Samaritan came by, saw me, brought me to the inn and paid for my stay and health. Left for dead, He took me up, put me over His shoulder as the broken, lost, wounded lamb that I was, and brought me with Him, because He is the Good Shepherd. He is the Good Physician, who takes me, brings me to His home, watches over me, tends to every wound, gives me medicine for the infection.

In all of these things what was I? I was dead, I was dirty and filthy, I was sick, I was naked and had nothing. In everything, in everything, it was He who has rescued me. He did it, not me. He did all of it, I did none of it.

Faith is not me picking myself up. Faith is empty hands that receive. Faith is poverty and being given riches. Faith is nakedness and being clothed. Faith is being dead and made alive. Faith is being born again.

But what is faith without the Shepherd, the Physician, the Good Samaritan? What is faith without the cross? What is faith without the Declaration of Pardon?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark Quayle]

I learned early on the five most important aids in interpreting scripture are: context, context, context, context and context.

Non-answer.

You have already sluffed off the truth behind a free will offering, just being “the amount given was just up to the individual”, but if it is up to the individual is it his choice on what he will give and not someone else making his choice?

No. It is the only scripture mentioning 'free will' as such, as far as most translations, anyhow. What it calls free will, is that it is a voluntary offering, not a prescripted or required offering. The fact that it involves choice has no reference to it being called a 'free will offering'. I hope that isn't your usual hermeneutical method.

You are right, God does not open the head of a person and tell us where to find inside the brain the free will cells, He planted in all mature adults. It cannot be scientifically “proven” beyond any shadow of doubt man has free will, but we can look to scripture to determine if some autonomous free will is required for man to achieve man’s objective and assume God would have to provide that amount of free will.

First off: If some limited autonomous free will is required for some humans to fulfill their earthly objective, does God have the power and Love to provide such a gift.

First off: You would have to show that it is required, without equivocation on the meaning of "autonomous".
Then: You would have to show that the notion of true autonomy by anything but first cause is not logically self-contradictory.

Are you of the opinion that the notion of God making a rock too big for himself to pick up is a valid consideration?

We have discussed this before: “hierarchy of causation”, does not negate God having the power and Love to provide mature adult humans with some very limited ability to be a first cause, just as there does not have to be only one singular “first cause” for everything, God can intervein in the universe as a first causer many times, breaking the sequences of events which would have existed from just one initial first cause.

It is not a question of power or ability. It is a question of the presumption of a mere creature supposing his words to mean something substantial.

By the way, no. There can be only one first cause. Necessarily, first cause can not be under logical causation of any kind from outside himself. First Cause is not under governance by or obligation to any principle that does not descent from himself. I honestly believe that if you were not so set on your thesis that you are bright enough of a mind you could see this. If there are more than one first cause, there is principle from outside at least one of them, rendering them after all not first cause. Logically, then, more than one first cause is a self-contradictory notion.

You are correct in saying “it is not Biblical submission” and “his heart has not surrendered”, the surrendering soldier of satan, does not have the Godly type Love to submit to God. All he needs is a very little “faith” in God’s Love to hope that God will not immediately destroy him and just might provide him with a little undeserved charity and he must have the “humility” to be able to humbly accept needed charity as charity.

And around we go again. WHERE does he get that humility? Where does he get that faith?

You remind me of the atheistic scientist RC Sproul spoke of who said something like, "Science now knows that you can't just get something from nothing. To get something from nothing can't just happen —it takes a long, long, time."

You've just GOT to insist on the fiction of a little spark of intrinsic life in a man God calls DEAD.

“Has God indeed said...." DEAD?

 

[bling]

Before we continue, I want to address this specifically:

"The writer of Hebrews is pointing to the need for faith at any time and all the time."

Because it sounds to me as though you are arguing that faith, generic faith, is rewarded by God. You say Abel had faith by showing the better sacrifice, and thus was righteous.

So let's explore faith with a series of questions that I hope will allow us to narrow some ideas down.

If I have faith that, ultimately, Odin will slay my enemies on Ragnarok, will God credit that to me as righteousness?

It is either stated or assumed the “faith” God appreciates is faith in Himself or Christ.

If I have faith that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet and that the Qur'an is the final and full revelation of God to mankind, will God credit that to me as righteousness?

Just having faith in a “god” is not the faith we are talking about.

If I have faith that if I try to live a good life to the best of my abilities, because it is written, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." that this will be credited to me as righteousness?

Again it is faith in God/Christ that counts.

If I have faith that Jesus was a very holy man, a prophet, and was the son of God by virtue of His obedience to the Torah, will that be credited to me as righteousness?

Do you believe He is the Messiah, because that is who He is

Is Christ necessary for salvation? Is Christ necessary only now, but not before? Does Christ only become necessary once we learn about Him? How does this work in your soteriological system exactly?

God has both the power and Love to listen to the prays of people who have not heard of Christ. I and friends of mine have met people who had a great faith in a benevolent Creator, were living very moral lives and yet knew nothing of Jesus. Just telling them about Christ was like talking to believers already and they were just consuming every word. They were baptized that day and wanted to study all night.

I feel God led me to them.

Christ is part of the Godhead so in placing your trust in a benevolent Creator you are placing your trust in Christ also, but you may not know anything about what Christ specifically did here on earth. God can certainly forgive people who never heard of Christ and send us to talk with them about Christ, but if we refuse to go, are they lost?

I'm not asking, "Can a person who never heard of Jesus be saved" I'm asking if Jesus Christ Himself and what He did necessary for a person to be saved. Or not?

OK, What Jesus did on earth was not necessary to save those who lived before Christ came to earth. This will take lots of words to explain, which all has to do with the huge topic of the atoning sacrifice.

Because at this moment it sounds a lot like you believe that Jesus is merely one way which God uses to save people, but that there could be many different ways for a person to be saved that don't involve Jesus at all. As such you see in the examples of Abel and Abraham examples of a salvation apart from Christ, but which involves faith. And ergo my curiosity: Faith in what? Anything?

I never expressed the idea “faith in anything”, but talked about faith in the God and if they knew of Christ it was faith in Christ and God.

Salvation comes to those who place their faith in the real Deity.

Or is it not faith itself that is important, but rather what faith leads to, namely that faith justifies because posessing faith leads to obedience, and it is that obedience that constitutes righteousness? And thus a person is righteous on the basis of their obedience to God which comes from a place of faith? As that seems to be what you've been driving home at.

And if it is our faith-based obedience to God that makes us righteous, then perhaps you could explain how that isn't works?

Do you regard as "works" only some human activities but not other human activities?

At this point I want to apologize, as I do not intend to use a Gish Gallup, but I have genuine questions. I'm simply not sure how to read your posts and conclude that you don't believe that we are saved by our own works; in fact that we are saved by our works alone; and grace is merely an aiding force that helps us along the way.

-CryptoLutheran

Again, obedience (works) does not save you. We “obey”, out of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love) which comes from already being saved, forgiven, now having Godly type Love and having all the other wonderful gifts found in being a Christian.

Salvation, righteousness and justification are all gifts from God, while a little trust/faith in God’s Love to humbly accept these gifts as charity, allows us the obtain these gifts.

 

[bling]

But that's just it, God declares me forgiven, and so I am.

I was locked in prison and the Judge in the courtroom declared me pardoned of all my sin. Why? Why did the Judge declare me pardoned? What did I do to be declared pardon of all my crimes? And what sets me free from the prison? Do I break the prison door with my own strength, do I just believe the door isn't there? Or does someone come and unlock the door and say, "The Judge declares you pardoned of all charges" and I walk out of that cell a free man entirely without having done anything to earn that pardon?

You walked out!! Some people like the free food, set schedule, being lazy and really not having any responsibility, so they stay in prison.

The doors of the prison are open for everyone.

God is able, willing and wanting to forgive everyone, but people just do not like humbling themselves to the point of accept pure undeserved charity as charity, but that is the only way it is given. Forgiveness is explained with the parable Matt. 18:21-35 (which takes lots of word to explain).

So I am at the banquet, how did I get in? I am at the table, how did I get there? What clothes am I wearing? My filthy clothes or new clothes which were given to me? Did I clothe myself or was I clothed by another?

You accepted the invitation and went to the party, but you could have been like others and refused the invitation.

I maintain that that the preaching of the Gospel means the keys have come and unlocked the door, the Court took place on Mt. Calvary where Judgment took place and I was declared pardoned of everything--from which the authority of the keys come. That I was released from the prison, and though naked and filthy in the prison, I was bathed and clothed with new clothes. I did not clean myself, I was cleaned by another, I did not clothe myself, I was clothed by another--I am wearing someone else's clothes, they do not belong to me, they were given to me. I am escorted and brought to the banqueting hall and given a seat of honor because I have the garment given to me, because of the position given to me. I am declared pardoned, I am clothed with a righteousness that is not my own, I am adopted into a house which I was formerly estranged from. The Father calls me "son" because I wear the garment of His only-begotten Son. I am therefore a joint-heir with the Son, I am a younger brother of the Son, I am in the Son's Father's house, I am seated with the Son at His Table, I am beside Him, with Him, and have all of this because everything that belongs to Him by virtue of Who He is and What He is, and all that He Himself has done by Himself, that He says, is mine.

The prison door has always been unlocked for everyone and they have all been invited to the banquet. We all have a false pride which we try to protect, so we do not want to go out through the door God has generously left unlocked, but want to try to climb out over the wall, sneak into the party, come as we are and just not accept pure undeserved charity from God/Christ.

I was dead laying on the side of the road, having been assailed by robbers. A levite and a priest walked by and did nothing. But a Good Samaritan came by, saw me, brought me to the inn and paid for my stay and health. Left for dead, He took me up, put me over His shoulder as the broken, lost, wounded lamb that I was, and brought me with Him, because He is the Good Shepherd. He is the Good Physician, who takes me, brings me to His home, watches over me, tends to every wound, gives me medicine for the infection.

In all of these things what was I? I was dead, I was dirty and filthy, I was sick, I was naked and had nothing. In everything, in everything, it was He who has rescued me. He did it, not me. He did all of it, I did none of it.

Faith is not me picking myself up. Faith is empty hands that receive. Faith is poverty and being given riches. Faith is nakedness and being clothed. Faith is being dead and made alive. Faith is being born again.

But what is faith without the Shepherd, the Physician, the Good Samaritan? What is faith without the cross? What is faith without the Declaration of Pardon?

-CryptoLutheran

The Good Samaritan did his part perfectly, but what about the person representing “you” on the side of the road? As a Jew at this time, you might have earlier said to your Jewish friends: “I would rather die then have a Samaritan tough me.” When you became conscience while in the inn and found out what a Samaritan had done for you, you still might have said: “I wish he had never touched me.” Are there people like that in this world?

Some people will do almost anything to avoid accepting pure, sacrificial, undeserved charity as charity.

“You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.” Faith/trust allows you to trust the water to be water and drink.

There is a part your free will choosing plays in your salvation, but it is not a “work”, since accepting charity as charity is not a work.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is either stated or assumed the “faith” God appreciates is faith in Himself or Christ.

Just having faith in a “god” is not the faith we are talking about.

Again it is faith in God/Christ that counts.

Do you believe He is the Messiah, because that is who He is

God has both the power and Love to listen to the prays of people who have not heard of Christ. I and friends of mine have met people who had a great faith in a benevolent Creator, were living very moral lives and yet knew nothing of Jesus. Just telling them about Christ was like talking to believers already and they were just consuming every word. They were baptized that day and wanted to study all night.

I feel God led me to them.

Can a belief in "a benevolent creator" save apart from what Christ did on the cross?

Christ is part of the Godhead so in placing your trust in a benevolent Creator you are placing your trust in Christ also, but you may not know anything about what Christ specifically did here on earth. God can certainly forgive people who never heard of Christ and send us to talk with them about Christ, but if we refuse to go, are they lost?

OK, What Jesus did on earth was not necessary to save those who lived before Christ came to earth. This will take lots of words to explain, which all has to do with the huge topic of the atoning sacrifice.

I think you should try to explain it because I think this is a deeply problematic statement to be making. Because if Jesus isn't necessary, then bye bye Christianity.

I never expressed the idea “faith in anything”, but talked about faith in the God and if they knew of Christ it was faith in Christ and God.

Salvation comes to those who place their faith in the real Deity.

So then Jews, Muslims, Baha'i, and other Abrahamic/Abrahamic-derived religions and other Abrahamic-influenced theisms are themselves equally salvific as Christianity?

Again, I'm not asking "Can someone be saved who isn't a Christian", but that there is an equal power of salvation in other religions as long as one believes in the God of Abraham?

That is, Jesus Himself and what He did isn't necessary, only placing one's faith in the real Deity is?

Am I correct in understanding you, or am I wildly off?

Again, obedience (works) does not save you. We “obey”, out of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love) which comes from already being saved, forgiven, now having Godly type Love and having all the other wonderful gifts found in being a Christian.

Salvation, righteousness and justification are all gifts from God, while a little trust/faith in God’s Love to humbly accept these gifts as charity, allows us the obtain these gifts.

If faith is something I do, and it is an act of obedience, then doesn't that make faith a work of obedience?

If I take out the trash because I'm told I have to do it, and I do it, isn't that something I've done? Isn't that a work?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

No. It is the only scripture mentioning 'free will' as such, as far as most translations, anyhow. What it calls free will, is that it is a voluntary offering, not a prescripted or required offering. The fact that it involves choice has no reference to it being called a 'free will offering'. I hope that isn't your usual hermeneutical method.

Your saying free will offering means “voluntary offering”, so who is making the free will (voluntary) choice of the amount of the person gives?

First off: You would have to show that it is required, without equivocation on the meaning of "autonomous".
Then: You would have to show that the notion of true autonomy by anything but first cause is not logically self-contradictory.

Are you of the opinion that the notion of God making a rock too big for himself to pick up is a valid consideration?

I agree there are some things by definition, which are impossible to do, so even God could not do them, but:

Can God intervein in our universe and do a second new first cause to taking the universe in another direction?

Lets just say; the universe initial creation would not produce life on earth, but God could intervein as a first causer to change things producing life on earth.

Does God also have the power and Love to allow humans with some very limited free will ability to intervein in our world to be a first cause in a decision?

It is not a question of power or ability. It is a question of the presumption of a mere creature supposing his words to mean something substantial.

By the way, no. There can be only one first cause. Necessarily, first cause can not be under logical causation of any kind from outside himself. First Cause is not under governance by or obligation to any principle that does not descent from itself. I honestly believe that if you were not so set on your thesis that you are bright enough of a mind you could see this. If there are more than one first cause, there is principle from outside at least one of them, rendering them after all not first cause. Logically, then, more than one first cause is a self-contradictory notion.

I do not see it as self-contradictory, why can’t God intervein after doing the first cause.

Where is the science (logic) behind your conclusion: “…more than one first cause is a self-contradictory notion.”?

Looking around our universe, God could easily be the Causer of many first causes n our universe, so explain why that is impossible?

And around we go again. WHERE does he get that humility? Where does he get that faith?

You remind me of the atheistic scientist RC Sproul spoke of who said something like, "Science now knows that you can't just get something from nothing. To get something from nothing can't just happen —it takes a long, long, time."

You've just GOT to insist on the fiction of a little spark of intrinsic life in a man God calls DEAD.

“Has God indeed said...." DEAD?

Jesus had the father describe the young son as dead when the son was in the foreign land still able to do stuff.

 

[bling]

Can a belief in "a benevolent creator" save apart from what Christ did on the cross?

It would have to be a true belief to the point of repentance changing your way, which God will provide you with the ability to do.

I think you should try to explain it because I think this is a deeply problematic statement to be making. Because if Jesus isn't necessary, then bye bye Christianity.

Did you read post 67, since you did not address it yet and at least that is an introduction to the differences between the handing of sin before and after the cross. Please read and think about it and ask questions concerning what I said, before we go on with this.

So then Jews, Muslims, Baha'i, and other Abrahamic/Abrahamic-derived religions and other Abrahamic-influenced theisms are themselves equally salvific as Christianity?

Never even suggest that, they along with some calling themselves “Christian”, are not worshipping the true God and Christ.

Again, I'm not asking "Can someone be saved who isn't a Christian", but that there is an equal power of salvation in other religions as long as one believes in the God of Abraham?

That is, Jesus Himself and what He did isn't necessary, only placing one's faith in the real Deity is?

Am I correct in understanding you, or am I wildly off?




If faith is something I do, and it is an act of obedience, then doesn't that make faith a work of obedience?

If I take out the trash because I'm told I have to do it, and I do it, isn't that something I've done? Isn't that a work?

“Work” is will defined in scripture and it is what the Jews could not do on the Sabbath. The Jews could believe (have faith in) God on the Sabbath, so it is not work. Worship is not work either, so if you are worshipping you are not working.

If you are doing things in obedience to the commandments of man it would be vain worship to offer that obedience up to God. You can do good stuff out of a Godly type Love (1 Cor. 13:1-3) and in obedience to God’s commands and offer that up in obedience to God as worship.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your saying free will offering means “voluntary offering”, so who is making the free will (voluntary) choice of the amount of the person gives?

You missed what I'm saying. I could point to probably thousands of references in Scripture of choices being made. This one is no different. The fact it speaks of a voluntary choice has no more to do with what you are referring to by your use of the term, "free will", than the rest of them do.

I agree there are some things by definition, which are impossible to do, so even God could not do them, but:

It's not a question of whether God can or cannot do them. It's a question of whether they are actually "things" or, instead, just some silly constructions in human minds.

Can God intervein in our universe and do a second new first cause to taking the universe in another direction?

God intervening is still first cause, still God, the only first cause. I do not even begin to deny intervening, though I do think it is only our way of categorizing what he does.

Lets just say; the universe initial creation would not produce life on earth, but God could intervein as a first causer to change things producing life on earth.

Of course. So what? Still first cause.

Does God also have the power and Love to allow humans with some very limited free will ability to intervein in our world to be a first cause in a decision?

Bogus notion, again, if by "free will" you mean 'libertarian', uncaused, free will.

I do not see it as self-contradictory, why can’t God intervein after doing the first cause.

GOD is the first cause. Everything he makes is an effect of first cause, though by far most of them are also causes of further effects.

Where is the science (logic) behind your conclusion: “…more than one first cause is a self-contradictory notion.”?

First, let's get straight what is meant by 'first cause'. You have some kind of odd notion, that God can make other first causes. That is a bogus, self-contradictory, notion.

First Cause, by definition, means self-existent, un-caused, not made.

Looking around our universe, God could easily be the Causer of many first causes n our universe, so explain why that is impossible?

Same reason as above. They are none of them 'first cause' if they come as effects of the first one. The second supposed "first cause" is not the first. Get me? God alone —not even anything he makes— is first cause. He can start innumerable chains of causation, but HE is at the head of each chain, even if one chain has only one link —a cause that is also an effect of God's causation.

Again, by definition, first cause can not be caused.

Jesus had the father describe the young son as dead when the son was in the foreign land still able to do stuff.

Yes. So what?

 

[bling]

First Cause, by definition, means self-existent, un-caused, not made.

Can we find in scripture this definition of “First Cause”?

If not, then this is your definition and/or some man’s definition?

From this definition you come up with, but again not found in scripture:

GOD is the first cause. Everything he makes is an effect of first cause, though by far most of them are also causes of further effects.

I would define a “first cause” as a cause, which is not the result or effect of a previous cause. This cause is coming from within a being, which can totally and completely be held accountable for creating this cause.

By your definition: man’s actions are only the effects of what God caused them to do, they react according to what caused them to react the way they did.

By my definition God could miraculously provide humans with the ability to be a first cause. Man can be the first cause for why he did not accept the invitation to the party.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Can we find in scripture this definition of “First Cause”?

If not, then this is your definition and/or some man’s definition?

From this definition you come up with, but again not found in scripture:

MQ: "GOD is the first cause. Everything he makes is an effect of first cause, though by far most of them are also causes of further effects."

I would define a “first cause” as a cause, which is not the result or effect of a previous cause. This cause is coming from within a being, which can totally and completely be held accountable for creating this cause.

By your definition: man’s actions are only the effects of what God caused them to do, they react according to what caused them to react the way they did.

By my definition God could miraculously provide humans with the ability to be a first cause. Man can be the first cause for why he did not accept the invitation to the party.

I took the liberty of placing an MQ in front of the portion of your post that was quoting me, and italicizing it, and putting quote marks at both ends of it, for clarity of who said what.

"Miracle" doesn't imply "logically self-contradictory".

Can we find in Scripture your definition of "First Cause"?

Again, 'First Cause' necessarily implies it alone is the first cause. If it was caused —even if caused by God— it is not the first cause. "First Cause" by definition is not caused by a previous cause. If God caused something, then by definition that thing is not a first cause.


You asked if I can find my definition in Scripture:

John 1: "3 All things were made by him"

Colossians 1: "16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Acts 17: "24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things."

I bet if you looked you could find a few too.

 

[bling]

I took the liberty of placing an MQ in front of the portion of your post that was quoting me, and italicizing it, and putting quote marks at both ends of it, for clarity of who said what.

"Miracle" doesn't imply "logically self-contradictory".

Are you saying God does not have the power to provide mature adults with the ability to make some truly limited first cause choices out of a miraculous autonomous free will ability?

This is only “self-contradictory” by your definition have God with the only ability to be a first causer. God making being who can be first causers does not fit your definition.

Can we find in Scripture your definition of "First Cause"?

The “whoever” in scripture have to be first causers to be held accountable for their choices, for God to be Lovingly just.

Again, 'First Cause' necessarily implies it alone is the first cause. If it was caused —even if caused by God— it is not the first cause. "First Cause" by definition is not caused by a previous cause. If God caused something, then by definition that thing is not a first cause.

Again, God is a first causer, because what happened originated from within God and nothing previous caused God’s choice. Mature adults need this ability to make some choices within themselves to be held personally accountable for those choices or God alone is accountable for all human choice.

You asked if I can find my definition in Scripture:

John 1: "3 All things were made by him"

Colossians 1: "16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Acts 17: "24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things."

Now, we have the problem of how some word in scripture are defined; both “all” and “things”.

Does “all” always mean everything without exception and do “things” include even human thoughts and/or human choices?

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

If God is the source of everything by your definition of everything then He is also the source of temptation.

Is God the source of sin and evil?

Does satan have free will?

How are we more than just glorified puppets?