• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

eschtalogical views

blessedbe

Learning everyday!
Feb 21, 2004
611
36
53
Ohio
✟23,464.00
Faith
Calvinist
Ok, now that I have come to the realization that I am a 'calvinist' at heart, I have a question for all of you guys who have been around a while. What are you eschtalogical views, in general? Obviously I realize that they will vary, but I'm wondering how many of you are pre-trib(if any), or amillenialist, or preterist, or so on and so forth.
Traditionally, what were the "fathers" views? Calvin's? etc...
And are there any good links to this effect?

I have been taught pre-trib rapture, but I have always had a hard time with it, and after reading the bible more thoroughly, I cannot hold to this anymore....so I really need to figure out what it is that I do believe...

Thanks!!
 
There is a great website by Dr. Francis Nigel Lee which provides significant evidence that the early church fathers and reformers, including Calvin and Luther, were postmill "historicalists." He makes a great case that preterism began as a Roman Catholic Jesuit attempt to counter the reformed historicalist teaching that the Roman Catholic Church was the harlot of Babylon in Revelation.

http://www.dr-fnlee.org/
 
Upvote 0

Donny_B

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2003
570
3
North Carolina
✟740.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
While the WCF is historicist, it does not mention the millennium at all. It mentions a general resurrection and "rapture" of those living at the last day, and a resurrection of the unjust. It says while that day is unknown, we should ever be watchful for that day and be ever prepared to say "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen."
 
Upvote 0

Donny_B

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2003
570
3
North Carolina
✟740.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
David Engelsma makes the case that the Reformers were amillennial, because of the Second Helvetic Confession of 1566 which denounced postmillennialism. He says that while there were postmillennialists at the Westminster Assembly, they failed to affect the wording of the Confession.

"But it may be noted that Anglican theologian Peter Toon has written that the postmillennialists at the Westminster Assembly failed to "affect the final wording of the (Westminster) Confession of Faith, which gives the impression of following the Augustinian teaching"

"The Three Forms of Unity condemn the hope of postmillennialism. The church in the end time will be a persecuted church, not a triumphalist church (Heid. Cat., Q. 52; Bel. Conf., Art. 37). The Messianic kingdom in history is the church, not a "Christianized" world (Heid. Cat., Q. 123; Bel. Conf., Art. 27)."

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/reading/article.cgi?id=8
 
Upvote 0

Gabriel

I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found
Oct 10, 2002
2,923
107
55
FL
Visit site
✟26,559.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I personally have hardly studied eschatology. From the brief position papers I have read I would say that I am amill. Although, I was raised as a pre-trib, I have come to see that both pre and post call for a second and a third coming of Christ. I just don't see it. When Christ returns He is here to stay.

There seems to be a bit of debate as to where our historical fathers stood on the subject. From those who are amill, I heard amill. From those who are post, I heard post.
 
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
frost said:
I'd guess most Calvinists are either Amil or Preterist.


hopeful amil seems to predominate in the circles i know.

with those lending towards theonomy being post mil.
the only preterist or partial preterists i've known had substantial studies of Bible in secular schools. i've only known historist- reformed online.

i've never met a dispensational or even pre-mil reformed person, but i understand they exist. although i'll bet they are defective in covenant theology. *grin*
 
Upvote 0

blessedbe

Learning everyday!
Feb 21, 2004
611
36
53
Ohio
✟23,464.00
Faith
Calvinist
rmwilliamsll said:
hopeful amil seems to predominate in the circles i know.

with those lending towards theonomy being post mil.
the only preterist or partial preterists i've known had substantial studies of Bible in secular schools. i've only known historist- reformed online.

i've never met a dispensational or even pre-mil reformed person, but i understand they exist. although i'll bet they are defective in covenant theology. *grin*


I admit, the only calvinists I "know" are the ones on here, and it seems they are either amill, or preterist.

It's funny you should say that you don't know any dispensational or pre-mill reformed, because I had to change my view(pre-mill) when I changed to calvinism just recently!! LOL the two just don't mix! When the "light" of reformed thinking came on, the pre-mill "light" went out. Very suddenly it seems all wrong to me, and I don't know why...


what do you mean by hopeful amill? I have to study amill more, right now I lean towards preterism, but there are problems I'm having with it...

thanks for all the responses....
 
Upvote 0

wobbly

child of God
Jul 5, 2004
93
5
67
Central Coast,NSW
✟239.00
Faith
Protestant
Nice to meet you.

rmwilliamsll said:
i've never met a dispensational or even pre-mil reformed person, but i understand they exist. although i'll bet they are defective in covenant theology. *grin*
probably no more that covenenter's are with dispensational theology *grin*

I like your intro to Calvin's INstitutes. Great work, thanks for making them available.

Actually our church has amill ministers, with a large proportion of pre-mill's in the congregation (presbyterian, baptists, and brethren), so we've decided to be panmillenialists - ie it'll all pan out in the end.

cheers
Martin
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟24,308.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
a superb book by Kim Riddlebarger - I very strongly recommend it to you

- What does the Bible really teach about the end times?
- Will there be a rapture with some people left behind?
- How has the church traditionally understood the millennial age?

In a clear and accessible manner, Kim Riddlebarger presents and defends amillennialism as the historic Protestant understanding of the millennial age. Amillenarians believe that the millennium is a present reality centered in Christ's heavenly reign, not a future hope of Christ's rule on earth after his return.
Recognizing that eschatology - the study of future things - is a complicated and controversial subject, Riddlebarger begins with definitions of key terminology and an overview of various viewpoints and related biblical themes. he then discusses key passages of Scripture that bear upon the millennial age, including Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Romans 11, and Revelation 20. Finally, he evaluates the main problem facing each of the major millennial positions (dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, and preterism) and cautions readers to be aware of the consequences of each view.

published by Baker Book House ISBN 0-8010-6435-X and Inter-Varsity Press ISBN 0-85111-997-2
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟24,308.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
littleapologist said:
where are there good sites to read up on each view. i don't really have an end time view cause i havn't studied it at all, but from what little i have read, i am leaning toward amil.
I recommend you have a look here:

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/

God bless

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟24,308.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Street Preacher said:
I'm a pre triber most of the time but I would put money on it.
I guess you wanted to say: I would NOT put money on it, didn't you?

(my native tongue is German so perhaps I'm wrong)

:wave:

PS: I am sure we all agree that we are pre-parousians e.g. living before the second advent of Christ.:D (except for the full-preterist position of course, which is a he...y :blush: )
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,492
3,764
Canada
✟903,358.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
5solas said:
I guess you wanted to say: I would NOT put money on it, didn't you?

(my native tongue is German so perhaps I'm wrong)

:wave:

PS: I am sure we all agree that we are pre-parousians e.g. living before the second advent of Christ.:D (except for the full-preterist position of course, which is a he...y :blush: )
Your correct, I missed the NOT. Amil is interesting, maybe someday I'll go a little deeper in trying to get an understanding of it.
 
Upvote 0

blessedbe

Learning everyday!
Feb 21, 2004
611
36
53
Ohio
✟23,464.00
Faith
Calvinist
5solas said:
a superb book by Kim Riddlebarger - I very strongly recommend it to you

- What does the Bible really teach about the end times?
- Will there be a rapture with some people left behind?
- How has the church traditionally understood the millennial age?

In a clear and accessible manner, Kim Riddlebarger presents and defends amillennialism as the historic Protestant understanding of the millennial age. Amillenarians believe that the millennium is a present reality centered in Christ's heavenly reign, not a future hope of Christ's rule on earth after his return.
Recognizing that eschatology - the study of future things - is a complicated and controversial subject, Riddlebarger begins with definitions of key terminology and an overview of various viewpoints and related biblical themes. he then discusses key passages of Scripture that bear upon the millennial age, including Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Romans 11, and Revelation 20. Finally, he evaluates the main problem facing each of the major millennial positions (dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, and preterism) and cautions readers to be aware of the consequences of each view.

published by Baker Book House ISBN 0-8010-6435-X and Inter-Varsity Press ISBN 0-85111-997-2


thank you, I will definately look into it. I'm leaning toward Preterism right now...but I haven't really looked into amill..I don't really understand it at all. Do amills believe the world will end eventually? Like a second coming but without the whole rapture thing?
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟24,308.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
blessedbe said:
thank you, I will definately look into it. I'm leaning toward Preterism right now...but I haven't really looked into amill..I don't really understand it at all. Do amills believe the world will end eventually? Like a second coming but without the whole rapture thing?
have a look here: http://members.aol.com/twarren10/eschatology.html
and here: http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/

This world will end with the 2nd coming of Jesus and the rapture at the same moment - and then there will be the judgment - and then the new earth and the new heaven. Postmillennialists expect a "golden age" on THIS earth before Jesus returns - a view the bible certainly does not support. I was a dispensationalist before but now I believe that the amillennial position is correct - it was a long and hard way! I am convinced that dispensationalism is a "truth" created by men not a truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

Read Riddlebarger's book - you will be pleased!

And there is a wonderful sermon of John Piper here:

"God's Invincible Purpose
Foundations for Full Assurance: Behold, I Make All Things New"

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/92/042692.html

I like that!

:wave:
 
Upvote 0
5solas said:
Postmillennialists expect a "golden age" on THIS earth before Jesus returns - a view the bible certainly does not support.
Well, I see a lot of biblical support for the postmill view and the "golden age." One example is:

ISA 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.

ISA 65:21 "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

ISA 65:22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.

ISA 65:23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord, And their descendants with them.

ISA 65:24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.

ISA 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the Lord.

Notice there is death, marriage, aging, child bearing, prayer, people building houses and planting, reaping, and working and even animals living and eating. This sure doesn't sound like heaven to me.
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟24,308.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Since postmillenarians believe that Jesus Christ returns after the millennial age, they do not face the serious problems associated with premillialism, namely, the presence of evil during the millennail age and the presence of resurrected and unresurrected individuals coexisting on earth after Christ's second advent. In this regard, postmillennialsim and amillenialism have much in common. But some important differences do remain.
The most serious interpretive problem associated with postmillennialsim has to to with the nature of the New Testament's expectation for the future. Does the New Testament anticipate a future golden age for Christ's kingdom in which the nations are effectively Christianized, resulting in economic, cultural, and religious advances unsurpassed in human history?
Or does the general eschatological expectation of the New Testament center in Christ's direct intervention to a wicked and unbelieving world like in the days of Noah (Matt 24:37-38)? Postmillenarians anticipate a positive answer to the former question, while amillenarians expect the latter.
When the debate is framed as a contrast between postmillennial optimism or amillennial pessimism, postmillennial criticisms often have great thetorical effectiveness, especially with optimistic Americans. But such criticism fails to take into account that amillenarians are optimistic about the kindom of God. It is the kingdoms of this world which give amillenarians pause. Defining this debate in terms of ethos (optimism versus pessimism) overlooks the complexity of the exegetical issues in view and the nature of New Testament eschatology.
New Testament writers do not anticipate a millennial age to dawn on the earth but instead anticipate an eschatological age to come in which the temporal gives way to the eternal, as sinful flesh gives way to resurrection life. Although the kingdom of God is a present reality through the reign of Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the full realization of the blessings of the age to come is not a gradual or progressive process. The full realization of such blessings will be wrought by Jesus Christ at his second advent and not through a gradual eclipse of evil and the cessation of unbelief.
Yes, Satan is restrained throughout this present age through the preaching of the gospel. Yes, Christ's kingdom goes forth in power as men and women are transformed into the image of Christ, becoming salt and light, and therefore influencing the surrounding culture for Chrsit wherever they are. But here is no biblical evidence that the nations of the earth as a whole will become Christianized. In fact, just the opposite appears to be the case. After all, we read the great lament of our Lord, "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8). Indeed, the Bible teaches that Christ will judge the nations when he returns because of theri unbelief and hostility toward his kingdom (Matt 25:31-32; Rev 19:15; 20:11-12). It is hard to attribute this deplorable condition to a brief period of apostasy after Jesus Christ and his saints have ruled over these nations for a thousand years and, according to postmillennial expectations do not fit easily with the New Testament's emphasis on our Lord's return to judge the unbelieving world.

Postmillenarians must face other difficult problems as well. For one thing, if postmillennial expecations are correct, then when does the millennial age begin? If the millennium begins with the conversion of Israel and the Christianizing of the nations brought about by the binding of Satan, since obviously, Israel has not been converted and the nations of the earth have not been Christianized, we can only conclude that the millennial age has not yet commenced. Indeed, the nagging question remains, "If postmillenarians are correct about their millennial expectations, what does this say about the progress of the kingdom thus far?" Must we speak of the history of the church to date as an abject failure, although a golden age presumably lies ahead? Of course not. But this is the direction in which postmillennial expecations push us.
Anoter issue raised throughout the New Testament ist the expectaion - indeed the warning - that Christ's chruch will be a suffering church because heresy and false teaching will rise from within and because Christ's enemies will persecute his people from without. The New Testamt is replete with warnings about false gospels (Gal 1:6-9) and false apostles (2Cor 11:13-15). We are warned that perilous times will chracterize the last days when people love money, power, and pleasure (2Tim 3:1ff) more than the Savior. Does the New Testament teach that these things will cease once the millennial age begins? Or, rather, does the New Testament teach that Christians will face these things throughout the age until the return of our Lord? Postmillenarians believe the former, while amillenarians believe the latter.
Furthermore, what are we to make of the great theological paradox taught throughout the New Testament that it is in our own suffering and weakness that Christ's grace and power is magnified. In the critical millennial text, Revelation 20, John makes this very point. While the dragon makes war on the saints and appears to conquer them (Rev 13:7), those who refuse to worship him and are put to death because of their testimony for Jesus (Rev 20:4) are said to "come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years." Satan cannot win. When he wages war on the saints and appears to have conquered them, he is actually being defeated. As John told us, those whom the serpent puts to death come to life and reign with Christ.
Therefore, postmillenarians are absolutely correct to be otpimistic about the triumph of Christ's kingdom and the influence of Christianity on the cultures of the world. But postmillenarians err when they attempt to locate the triumph of the kingdom in the Christianizing of the nations and the economic, cultural, and religious progress associated with an earthly millennium. Christ's kingdom is not of this world. But one day, John said, the kingdoms of this world will "become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" (Rev 11:15). That day will come when Jesus christ returns but not before.

:wave:

PS this is from Riddlebarger's book - my English is not that good :p
 
Upvote 0