Eschatological Views

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good4u said:

So now I get to add a view that has not been discussed as it is the most closely accurate to the totality of Scripture.

It is the Pre-wrath position.

Any eschatological view is generally concerned with the "snatching away" of the church from the persecution of the Anti-Christ and when this will happen.

Pre-wrath states that the church will indeed suffer greatly under the persecuting hand of the Anti-Christ. But as my position so states the church will not endure the wrath of God as it is poured out upon the remaining wicked on the Day of the Lord which the Bible talks about extensively.

So add this to the mix of views. Until someone comes closer than this, I find this to be the most accurate of all until proven otherwise.

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Me too! I used to be post-trib until I started reading about pre-wrath last year, and I believe it fits most closely with Scripture. I still think post-trib is a possibility, but I lean much more heavily toward the pre-wrath view.

Hu Good4u

The problem with that is that the great tribulation happens at the hands of the AC ..........correct

Well the Ac does not get out of the Pit until the Fifth Trumpet. Which is over half way through the plagues. Revelation is very clear here is the Beast right now………………

17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

he is in the Pit….here is where the pit is open and he gets out.

9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2: And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

The releasing of the AC from the pit is the first of the last three woes.

So the Great Tribulation happens During the Wrath of God.

We do not need to be whisked away to be Kept from the hour or spared the wrath.

What we need is to be sealed with the blood of the Lamb and then the Plagues of God's his Wrath on an unrepentant world will PASSOVER us.

Do you understand

Hellow JTF,

Yep, I understand. But you are dead wrong and biblically inaccurate. But then you are entitled to your opinion. I prefer what the totality of what the Scripture teaches. And indeed, the pre-wrath position fits ALL Scripture beautifully and awesomely.

I suggest you study it and then come tell me I am wrong. Up for the challenge?

Apparently Jazzybird did exactly that and came to the same conclusion I have. I think if you are open minded, you will take up the challenge.

good4u said:

Hellow JTF,

Yep, I understand. But you are dead wrong and biblically inaccurate. But then you are entitled to your opinion. I prefer what the totality of what the Scripture teaches. And indeed, the pre-wrath position fits ALL Scripture beautifully and awesomely.

I suggest you study it and then come tell me I am wrong. Up for the challenge?

Apparently Jazzybird did exactly that and came to the same conclusion I have. I think if you are open minded, you will take up the challenge.

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What the heck is a "pre wrath"?

Ah...IHIT....

I suggest you start reading a book and a very good book indeed. The Pre-wrath position is spelled out clearly and precisely with apparent contridicitons solved and totally backed in contextual Scripture in a book called, "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen.

You can purchase it from the www.Solagroup.com website. It is brilliant and this author is not a theologian but a former successful businessman who was a dedicated prophecy student who determined that Scipture in context would be his guiding authority for understanding the "time of the end."

It was the most spell-binding book, terrifying book and wonderful book (other than Scripture) that has changed by understanding of prophecy. I suggest you purchase it and then you will understand pre-wrath clearly.

Happy reading!

Greetings JTF,

Let us consider:

Matthew 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Would you say that the "entire" period of the "great tribulation" is absolutely horrific? I would venture to believe that the Hebrews viewed with awe and even terror the horrific plagues which came upon Egypt. Let's look at the plagues:

Exodus 7:17-18 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. 18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

COMPARE:

Revelation 8:7-9 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

In the following plagues I see similarities in some of them, however, as well you know the Hebrews were kept safe, as is the "tribulation saints".

Exodus 8:2-4 And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs: 3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs: 4 And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.

Exodus 8:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

Exodus 8:21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.

Exodus 9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.

Exodus 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
Exodus 9:18-19 Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. 19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

Exodus 10:4-5 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast: 5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field:

Exodus 10:21-22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. 22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:

Exodus 11:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.
Exodus 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

God's wrath then came upon the Egyptians as they tried to pursue the Hebrews across the Red Sea.

The same type of things occur during ALL of the "great tribulation", and then God's wrath is poured out upon Mystery Babylon.

And so we have these verses:

Daniel 7:21-22 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Again, it is the Beast that wages war against the saints during the entire period of the "great tribulation".

But the saints are waging their war also:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:5-7 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Do you see the connection between the 7 trumpets and what the "two witnesses" are doing on this earth? Note that at the end of the 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses' testimony, the Beast begins his war against them?

But thus we find:

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Also consider:

Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

This was done by the 6th angel. Remember the death angel which passed over the Hebrews?

Then at the seventh trumpet, the last of the Christians are caught up, there is a short pause, then God pours out His wrath.

All this in a space of 3 1/2 years. Plus maybe 40 days.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie said:

Greetings JTF,

Let us consider:

Matthew 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Yes, I will consider that and that may indeed happen in the future, unfortunately, the people of Jerusalem went thru that, just as Jesus and God prophecied. Titus actually wanted to spare the temple for Rome, but God said no, and he couldn't stop the men from "leveling" it. Sad but true.

The siege was actually only about 6 months, so it was "shortened" a bit with a little help from GOd. Josephus's partially describing the destruction of Jerusalem:

Reve 17:17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast[rome], until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman[Jerusalem] whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

"Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death.
Amongst the tragical events which at this time occured, the following is more particularly deserving of notice : a false prophet, pretending to a divine commission, affirmed that, if the people would repair to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance. Accordingly about six thousand persons, chiefly women and children, assembled in a gallery, that was yet standing, on the outside of the building. Whilst they waited in anxious expectation of the promised miracle, the Romans with the most wanton barbarity, set fire to the gallery ; from which, multitudes; rendered frantic by their horrible situation, precipitated themselves on the ruins below, and were killed by the fall : while, awful to relate, the rest, without a single exception, perished in the flames.
Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by the smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.

THis is how long it took to clean up the "rubble" and throw it into the fiery dump outside the city, Gehanna.
Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 14 "They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass through the land and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search.


Zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men[10 lost tribes/sheep] from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law.

According to Paul, there is no more jew or gentile, just those in Christ and those who aren't. (someone give me a definition of what a real "jew" is today please). With 8 billion people in this world, it will be quite awhile before a "fulness of gentiles" will ever come in if this is literal for "today".
As far as revelation is concerned, I believe the beast, false prophet and devil represent the same thing, "satan's" followers. "satan" is not shown being thrown into the "lake of fire", only the "devil". The fullness of the gentiles is referring to the gentiles in chapt 11 of revelation trodding on the Holy City being destroyed, and the taking out of the synagogue of "satan" in 70ad I believe. "satan" is the opposite of God, and is the "adversary". He figuratively represents the dark side of our concience and hearts, where as the spirit of God represents the light and righteouness of God thru Christ. (read tree of knowledge in Eden). Ever since the creation it has been a battle of both of these. But God decided to help out His people by bringing His Holy Spirit in the first century to dwell in those that are His and to overcome the forces of darkness by being His desciples to spread the message of His Son, Jesus.
Whether there is a "second coming" or not, this battle continues and has been for centuries. Our lives are but a mist, a blinking of an eye compared to eternal life, so we strive everyday to keep our lives close to God and His Son, as everyday could be our last.

Isaiah 1 :10 Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah: 11 "To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.

God referred to the jewish priest in Jerusalem as pagan entities, and Eygypt and Edom are also referring to them.

Joel 3:4 " Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head; 5 Because you have taken My silver and My gold, And have carried into your temples My prized possessions.9 Proclaim this among the nations[gentiles]: "Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, 'I [am] strong.' " 11 Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD. 19 "Egypt shall be a desolation, And Edom a desolate wilderness, Because of violence [against] the people of Judah["His elect/lost sheep"?], For they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall abide forever, And Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 "For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted; For the LORD dwells in Zion."




Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.




Zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "

I'm not so interested in the whole pre/mid/post debate thing. I've looked at them all in detail, taken them up as my view only to have each one dashed into pieces by varius different people that I greatly respect. I'm just looking to establish God's kingdom on the earth as much as possible now so I can be as ready as possible for Jesus when he comes back.

I am very interested in tracking and correlating current world events and seeing if and how they can fit into scripture.

It is fairly clear from scripture that world civilisation will become more advanced and more chaotic and then the end will come. Key factors I look at are the world geopolitical situation, Israel and the state of the Christian Church and how God is moving throughout the earth.

I think the fact that the temple mount in Israel has been slowly collapsing for years and that with recent earthquakes and excavations by the muslims it looks to be in a state of iminent collapse is significant. I believe the temple will be rebuilt eventually and that the anti-christ will desecrate it in the middle of the 7 year period. Certainly the Jews have everything ready for the rebuilding to take place.

If the temple mount did collapse taking the mosques with it, you can imagine the uproar and fighting that would break out over this piece of land which I would mark as the most important piece of land in the world.

Another significant world factor is the USA's protecting Israel. God said that he would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. It is easy to see how much God has blessed the USA.

The Bible does say though that God will demonstrate to the world and Israel that He is protecting Israel. I believe for this to happen, the USA will have to be incapacitated in some way so she is unable to come to the aid of Israel so that God can supernaturally defend Israel like he did in the Yom Kippur and 6 day wars.

Israel's military is now unequaled in the Middle East. The USA has provided them with nuclear weapons and all kinds of advanced weaponry that the rest of the M.E. can only dream of having. With the USA's complete backing I believe Israel has become too self confident and no longer believes it needs God's protection.

I'm not necesarily suggesting anything bad will happen to the USA. It could be simple as a change in foreign policy to appease the surrounding states that have all the Oil.

I would however say that the USA has been the greatest Christian nation on earth for a while now yet it apparently is continuing down the path to destruction as a whole.

The fact that 1 in 4 Americans (maybe more) have seen The Passion of The Christ is a very significant. When people are confronted with the message with such stark reality it really becomes a make or break situation. Jesus said that the gospel will be preached throughout the earth in every nation and then the end will come. I believe this applies on a smaller scale to the USA.

As far as I can see, the USA isn't directly mentioned anywhere in Bible prophecy. I see significant mentions of the Middle East, China, Russia and the EU though. This has lead me to the conclusion that because the USA is the greatest Christian nation on earth and because it has been faithful to Israel thus far, that it will be brought to make collective decision for or against Christ quite soon. Quite soon because I look at the EU and China and see they are bang on schedule to take on the rolls that scripture gives them in the end times.

One thing for certain is that the USA is heading for economic collapse. It is only a matter of time and I believe the timing is fully in God's hands and thus can be extended by the Christians if they pray. If anyone is interested in the reasons behind this collapse I would be happy to explain it...

I have a sense of urgency to pray for the USA and indeed I will be moving to the USA in September to work in a church. I only pray that this terrorist attack that has been predicted by the US government today will be stopped so I will be able to move.

All that may seem a bit anti-US but this is not my intention. Each nation of the world will eventually be called to account by God. It just so happens that the USA is the world's only superpower and everything which is about to follow is a result of that.

Hi 10 pin


I have a question....if God destroyed the temple and he says we are the Temple now...........and if God sacrificed his only son would not building a Temple and starting Animal Sacrifice be the evil thing.........

I mean Jesus was sacrifice once for all to start Animal sacrifice is to say Jesus was not good enough.

So I guess anyone who helps build the Temple and start Animal Sacrifice is actually helping the AC.

Because only the AC wants another Temple God does not need one…………….he does not rule from some Temple in Jerusalem he rules from Holy Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven. And there is no Temple in Holy Jerusalem.

When God did away with animal sacrifice 2,000 years ago you know when he nailed it to the cross he did away with it for good.

So I ask how can someone take it away from him........I mean if he stopped it 2,000 years ago and some loser starts it back up and then some other loser stops it ......how can that be taking it away from God.

He did away with it................... he never found pleasure in it.....How can stopping something someone else has started in opposition to the very sacrifice of his only Son be wanted by God…………………. this doctrine is just not true.

We offer the only acceptable sacrifice to God....so our prayers and deeds are the only sacrifice the AC could take away from God. There is no other sacrifice God accepts.

So that means the murder of the great tribulation saints.............. of the 144,000................ is the taking away of the Acceptable sacrifice by the AC.

And the building of the Temple is the Abomination that makes desolate. All performed by Evil men who feel they are doing God's will.

Just The Facts:

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.

Yes we as Christians don't need a temple or sacrifices because of what Jesus did on the cross.

The Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah or God and so they are still expecting a Messiah and they expect him to arrive through the Western gate of the temple.

This is why the Jews are so keen to rebuild the temple and have all the materials, altars etc ready to rebuild it.

The Bible is clear that the anti-christ will present himself to the Jews as the Messiah and will desecrate the temple halfway through the 7 year tribulation.


Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Matthew 24:15-16
“So when you see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.

2 Thes 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God.


So clearly the temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem on the temple mount, sometime before halfway through the 7 year trib period.

My point was: The fact that the mosques are under threat of iminent collapse is a warning to us all of the times we live in.

The sacrifices of the temple aren't really the issue. The place itself is important to God. Any idol there will be just as abominable to God today as it was when the Old covenant of the Law was still in effect.

1 Kings 9:3 -The LORD said to him:

"I have heard the prayer and plea you have made before me; I have consecrated this temple, which you have built, by putting my Name there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

When God said this, he knew all about everything that he was going to to in the future. He knew that he would place the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers and that the functions of the temple for the remittance of sin would no longer be in effect once Jesus came. Yet God still said that his Name, his heart, would be there forever. That he said it thousands of years ago makes no difference, he could have said it yesterday and it would have the same ramifications.

An abomination of desolation, a super idol, will be just as detestable to God today as it was that very day when he made that promise to Solomon.

Hi good for You

I have studied the Lie of pre trib rapture before even believed in it for a while, before I actually started to study the subject myself then the lies of all those accumulated teachers started to shine through.

tell you what you list ten verses that you say show this and i will show you how you have misunderstood every one of them.

Hi Dad

No one needs to be rapture to be spared the plagues.

Where the Hebrews whisked away....no They were protected from Gods plagues by the blood of the lamb.

rapture happens at the end of The trumpets which are the same as the bowls or Else the Kingdom comes twice once at the seventh trumpet and once at the seventh bowl.

Look at the sixth trumpet and sixth bowl then the seventh and seventh and you will see these events are the same event.

Hi Ten pin

You say it is Gods temple and it is God's sacrifice they take away.

That is like Me quitting say smoking and the you coming around 1,000 years later putting a pack of smokes in my hand and then taking them away and saying see i took away his smokes...............No you did not you took away your smokes as I never liked them and never took pleasure in them.

the same with God how can the AC starting Animal Sacrifice and then taking it away be taking anything away from God.

Ten pin I am going to take away all your drugs and alcohol you can not have your favourite thing anymore...........And I am going to stop you from molesting Children because you take pleasure in it.

Now Obviously as a good Christian you do None of these things nor do you take pleasure in them.....so how can I take it away from you.

If I want to take something away from you i have to take something you except and take pleasure in. otherwise I am not taking anything away from you.

So to with God HE did away with animal sacrifice HE destroyed the Jews temple.............You can not take these things away from him anymore THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. It would be like me taking drugs and paedophile stuff from you IMPOSSIBLE.

There is ONLY ONE sacrifice God sees as Acceptable

Rom:12:1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

1Pt:2:5: Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So since the prayers and Deeds of the Saints are THE ONLY sacrifice God accepts it is the only sacrifice that can be taken from him.

Do you understand.

It is the AC who builds the temple and starts animal sacrifice again so he can show himself as Jesus returned…………That is the abomination that cause desolation ……not putting some statue up in a temple he does not need or want.

Taking away the sacrifice is not stopping the jews from animal Sacrifice ……god does not want or take pleasure in such things ……….taking away the sacrifice is murdering the 144,000 sealed great tribulation prophets.

Hi Just The Facts

I did not say it was Gods temple and it is God's sacrifice they take away.

Read the verse from Matthew that I quoted. The Bible says that the anti-christ will put an end to sacrifice and offering. I don't believe that when it says "sacrifice and offering" that it specifically means "They are making the only acceptable sacrifice to God" because it doesn't say that.

The anti-christ is not taking anything away from God and it doesn't say that he is. All he is doing is stopping the daily sacrifices that is taking place.

The Jews want to rebuild the temple so they can restart the sacrifice and offerings. What reason they do it for and who they do it to is irrelevant. If the dome of the rock collapsed tomorrow then the Jews would try to move in and rebuild the temple and restart the sacrifice because they think they should be doing it. Obviously the muslims would have something to say about that and there would probably be a rather messy situation.

The Jews, today, have over 100 priests in training because they believe the temple will be rebuild. They frequently take the cornerstone to near the templemount to pray that they might be able to build the temple.

These 2 verses plus the other 3 I quoted leave no room for your interpretation.

Daniel 11:31
His forces will rise up and profane the fortified sanctuary stopping the daily sacrifice. In its place they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Daniel 12:11
From the time that the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination that causes desolation is set in place, there are 1,290 days.

I'm amillennialist because 1) that is what the Scripture says 2) the Holy Spirit has guided me to this conclusion 3) it is Reasonable 4) Holy Tradition declared chiliasm to be a heresy in the 2nd Ecumenical Council.

As for preterism, full-preterism is definitely heresy, but after I reread Revelation, I must take back my opinion on partial-preterism; it does pose a possible interpretation that is still orthodox. Originally I thought it was heretical as well, but I am obviously mistaken.

I'm non-Preterist myself, but I ask for my partial-Preterist brothers and sisters to please forgive me for my mistakes. My original belief was false and I accept that yours' is a possible accurate interpretation.

Hi Ten pin

you are mixing up two different abomiations the one in 11: is not the same as the one in 12:

quote

The anti-christ is not taking anything away from God and it doesn't say that he is. All he is doing is stopping the daily sacrifices that is taking place.

End Quote

But that is just what Daniel says the AC does take away God's sacrifice.

8:[11] It magnified itself, even up to the Prince of the host; and the continual burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.[12] And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt offering through transgression;

Is this not the verse we are discussing the him it is taken away from is God.

the daily Sacrifice is the prayers and deeds of the Saints...........................The Sanctuary thrown down is their bodies.

the sanctuary of God is his temple .....we are that Temple.............well all the sealed are that temple.................the 144,000 are that Temple.............

When the AC rises out of the pit and murders them he will cast down God's sanctuary and take away his sacrifice……………………….

Rv:8:4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The prayers and deeds of the Saints are the continual sacrifice that is taken away.

Notice that the 144,000 are sealed in chapter seven their prayers are pure and acceptable and they are sealed and begin to announce the plagues. This is what a sealed person does they witness the truth they are witnesses for God.


Acts:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They are witnesses they give testimony

Plague after plague they announce and still the world refuses to repent

At the Fifth Trumpet or Plague the AC is let out of the Pit he rises up and

7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.