Eschatological Views

[Captain John Sheridan]

Hey all and God bless!

I was just wondering what each person's particular eschatological view was. Feel free to be as detailed or as brief as you wish.

I'll start us off. I'm an amillenialist who believes generally that there will be a great apostasy near the end of these last days in which we are now living, during which time the Antichrist will set himself up in the temple of God, etc. Then, Christ "will come to judge the living and the dead" in His Second Coming, His Glorious Appearing. As to the supposed seven-year Tribulation period and judgments in the Apocalypse being fulfilled literally in the future, I'm not sure. But I'm open to new ideas, information, etc. and I'd love to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you for taking the time to read what I have written, and thank you in advance for responding.

God bless,
Sheridan

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Captain,

I am a pre-millenialist, and I see this as the order of events:

1) Men will no longer listen to sound doctrine.
2) A great apostacy will occur in the church.
3) The "False Prophet" will arise and lead many astray.
4) The Beast will be waging war against the Saints in that day.

(This is the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years before our Lord comes and is known as the "great tribulation.)

5) A great number of Jews are going to be saved during this time.
6) A great many believers will die.
7) The resurrection occurs a short time before the 7th and last trumpet.
8) Soon thereafter, the "catching away of the saints" will occur.
9) The 7th Trumpet shall sound
10) Mystery Babylon will suffer God's wrath
11) The Lord and all His saints return to earth to establish a 1,000 year reign on this earth.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi all

Hi Dad

I am so happy you are not a pre triber Dad....now all we have to do is get you to see the Truth of the Apostasy. (smile)

I will use Dad’s post to answer the question

1) Men will no longer listen to sound doctrine..................………….Already happened
2) A great apostacy will occur in the church....................……………Already Happened
3) The "False Prophet" will arise and lead many astray.........………….Many False teachers have led many astray.
4) The Beast will be waging war against the Saints in that day................................. the Beast has been chasing down "the remnant of her seed" for 1,900 years now

(This is the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years before our Lord comes and is known as the "great tribulation.) .............................the Great tribulation starts at the Fifth Trumpet.

5) A great number of Jews are going to be saved during this time................................ many many Jews are Already Christian one might even say their are more Christians with jewish Heritage then there are jews. The 144,000 are Christian not Jews only Christians get sealed.

6) A great many believers will die............................Yes this is True
7) The resurrection occurs a short time before the 7th and last trumpet. YAAAAAAAAA
8) Soon thereafter, the "catching away of the saints" will occur....................YAAAAAAAA
9) The 7th Trumpet shall sound...........................YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10) Mystery Babylon will suffer God's wrath......................The Wrath of God starts at the first Trumpet the Seventh Trumpet is the End of the Wrath.

7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

11) The Lord and all His saints return to earth to establish a 1,000 year reign on this earth............................YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA a Reign of peace were the NAtions are FORCED TO DESTROY THEIR ARMIES AND NOT LET SATAN DECIEVE THEM FOR 1,000 YEARS.

Wow we actually believe in quite a few of the same things atleast 50%

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Just The Facts,

1) Men will no longer listen to sound doctrine..................………….Already happened

2 Tim 4:1-4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

To one degree or another, ever since the cross there has been apostacy. But we can readily associate the red portions of the above with:

Matthew 24:24-25 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above is the "order of events" of the END TIMES.

2) A great apostacy will occur in the church....................……………Already Happened

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Again, this has been going on since the cross, but there shall be a time just prior to the Lord's 2nd advent, that SO MANY false prophets and false DOCTRINES are available, that if the Lord did not cut those days short - NO ONE would survive. This is actually what the War of the Beast is all about.

3) The "False Prophet" will arise and lead many astray.........………….Many False teachers have led many astray.

True, but the above applies.

4) The Beast will be waging war against the Saints in that day................................. the Beast has been chasing down "the remnant of her seed" for 1,900 years now

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You will notice that in the following verse, the "saints of God" will have been sealed, PRIOR to the onset of the Beast's war against the saints:

Revelation 7:2-3 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

(This is the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years before our Lord comes and is known as the "great tribulation.) .............................the Great tribulation starts at the Fifth Trumpet.

Sorry, here is the beginning of the "Great Tribulation":

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

5) A great number of Jews are going to be saved during this time................................ many many Jews are Already Christian one might even say their are more Christians with jewish Heritage then there are jews. The 144,000 are Christian not Jews only Christians get sealed.

Sorry, as of fairly recently "The Facts" are:

I have been updating the following figures for the last 2-3 years as I have obtained them:

There are 14,670,000 Jews in the World. (I updated this figure with 2002 stats)
Approx. 4.9 M Jews live in Israel.
Approx. 5.6 M Jews live in the U.S.
There are approx. 200,000 Messianic Jews.
Approx. 7,000 of these 200,000 live in Israel.

A friend of mine on another forum, in fact the owner of the board is now a missionary in Israel. He reports that less that 2% of all Jews in Israel are Messianic, that is, they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. So in the above stats, you can work out the percentages. There STILL remains ONLY a remnant of TRUE Jews - that is those Jews who are believers.

10) Mystery Babylon will suffer God's wrath......................The Wrath of God starts at the first Trumpet the Seventh Trumpet is the End of the Wrath.

Again you err. There is a quantitatively and qualitative difference between the Great Tribulation and the "wrath that is poured out upon Mystery Babylon:

10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Wow we actually believe in quite a few of the same things atleast 50%

Well, now that you know "Just the Facts", we can be in 100% agreement.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Eddielee]

Hello there Sheridan
I think Premillennialism is the truth; with the tribulational period characterized by a prewrath rapture. This is my opinion of the scriptures:

The last week of Daniel's 70th week (Danial 9) begins with a treaty between the beast and Israel. Followed by the seals of Revelation 4-7. These are the signs of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13). The beast deceives the world into thinking he is the savior, and begins to persecute Christians at the midpoint of the last 7 years, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thes 2, Daniel 11). The rapture cannot take place until after this has happened (2 Thes 2:1-4).

Jesus tells us to watch for the signs of his coming (Matthew 24, Mark 13); his coming must therefore have signs preceeding it. No one can know the day he will return, but he tells us to watch for the season. Peter says that day will come like a thief in the night, happening very quickly(2 Peter 3), and Paul says that the day should not come like a thief to believers (1 Thes 5), that we should be watchful.

The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from the sky just before the rapture, (Matthew 24:30), which corresponds to Revelation 6 where the same events occur, the sun and moon darkening and the stars falling. Immidiately afterwards Jesus returns gathering the elect (Matthew 24:30ish again), which is seen in Revelation as the saints coming out of the tribulation (Revelation 7). The trumpet blown is blown by God (Zechariah 9, 1 Thes 4, 1 Corinthians 15) and not by an angel.

Then the wrath of God is poured out as foreshadowed by the end of Revelation 6 (men hiding in the mountains from the wrath of God); this wrath is the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. During this wrath of God the two witnesses proclaim truth to Israel, the gospel is preached from them and by gospel angel of Revelation 14 who gives the message to the whole earth.

Through the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord, all idols are destroyed (Isaiah 2:17) and only God is exaulted; this shows us that this has not happened yet in history, the destruction of all idols on the face of the earth. The wrath of God is poured out and lots of people die (Zechariah 14, Zephniah 1, Revelation 14, 19, Joel 3). Following this is the Millennial reign of Christ (Zechariah 14, Isaiah 65, Revelation 20).

I think there are way too many specific events within these end time scriptures which are given literal termonology, to take any approach other then a simplistic literal interpretation; as the first 69 weeks of Daniel happened literally (Daniel 9, Nehemiah 2, Matthew 21); and as Jesus' first coming was fulfilled literally through all of the old testament prophecies (Micah, Isaiah 53, etc etc), and as the sun literally turned dark during the crucificion, and as he literally rose from the grave and taught the disciples for another literal 40 days, so too should this pattern of events being exactly what the words meant them to be emerge through the end times passages.

 

[Knee V]

I am an amillenialist (who leans to postmil from time to time). I am also a partial preterist.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Vinsight4u,

The time of the Great Tribulation lasts ONLY 3 1/2 years. Jesus describes its entirety as one of sever tribulation such as has NEVER been known to man. Disasters and Persecutions and Trials of the Believers are so bad that if He did not cut those days SHORT, none would survive.

Now let's look at Daniel 9 again. The prayer by Daniel was to "restore Israel to a right standing with God". As we agree that there was issued a decree by God that it would take 490 years for this to occur. The person making their "salvation" or (restoration to God) possible would be the Messiah. He would come at the END of the 69th week, which means that 483 years would pass before Messiah would come. Indeed Messiah did come at that time and for 3 1/2 years He preached to the "Lost sheep of Israel", attempting to restore Israel to a "right standing with God", BUT they rejected Him.

In God's perspective this was all necessary because He also had plans to "save the gentiles". So midway of the 70th week, Jesus was nailed to the cross and at the same time (essentially) He gave His disciples commands to "go ye unto ALL the world", and the Kingdom of God was TAKEN from Israel.

But we find in Romans 9-11 that God is not finished with Israel yet. For at the time when: The fulness of the Gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God), then once again God will reach out to Israel. As we see in Romans 11:31-32, it will be the Gentiles who are made responsible to "show mercy" to the Jews in the end, and it will be by taking the Gospel to them (see Romans 10 - how will they hear unless someone is sent).

This is the time of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus. It will be the time when the Beast wages war against the saints, and this period of time lasts ONLY 3 1/2 years. Thus by the end of that time, the Jews shall have received THEIR FULNESS in the Kingdom of God. It is that time that Daniel's prayer will have seen its complete fulfillment and is called in Daniel "the consummation".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

I'm willing to help you go into the meaning of the prophecies if you want to. That is the reason I came to the internet.

The humour and irony is so palpable I can taste it. From what I have seen you are pretty good at filling the screen with Scripture - but not much interpretation and logical thought.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Dad

That was great I loved it.

hope you didn't mind me posting after your post like that I thought you would not mind.

In Pauls comments in 2 Timm you will notice TWO KEY words

[3] For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,[4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

The Two Key words are Wander and Accumulate. these are things that happen over a LOOOONG Period of Time not overnight.

That is the First thing that happened after jesus Death there have been thousand of false teachers saying jesus is the Saviour follow jesus. Then they teach things that are the opposite to the prince of peace

2Cor:11:13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Their lips honour him but their hearts are as stone.

No the Plagues are the Wrath each plague or Trumpet is one more piece of the Wrath.

the Great tribulation is the killing of the Saints and does not happen until the Beast comes out of the pit when it is opened at the Fifth trumpet.

Where is the Beast Now

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

When is the pit opened.

1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2: And he opened the bottomless pit;

The AC causes the Great Tribulation and he does not get out of the Pit until the Fifth Trumpet.

I think your problem is you see the trumpets as tribulation but they are from God….they are Wrath………….Satan perpetrates the Great tribulation………………… not God.

 

[Knee V]

This is very much like the beginning of what often happens to good threads. It starts off on topic, then we start going off on tangents, and before we know it we're arguing about something that has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not saying we're necessarily off topic yet, but this is how it pretty much always goes. And I know I'm not a mod, but it's a HUGE pet peeve (however it's spelled) of mine, and I hate seeing good threads go down the tube.

 

[Dad Ernie]

I think your problem is you see the trumpets as tribulation but they are from God….they are Wrath………….Satan perpetrates the Great tribulation………………… not God.

Greetings Just the Facts,

Scripture MUST interpret scripture. I think you will agree on this. There is sufficient scriptures which describes various types of tribulations, all the way from Genesis to Revelation. But God's "wrath" as used in the scripture is actually few and far between, so I will give you some examples:

Korah's Rebellion
Sodom & Gomorrah
Pharoah's Army when caught in the Red Sea
Noah's Flood
2 Sam 6:6-7 when Uzzah steadied the Ark
Annanias and Sapphira
Mystery Babylon

The difference between tribulation and wrath is that tribulation takes place over a prolonged period of time as a rule and may OR may NOT result in death. Wrath OTOH, takes place in a moment, perhaps an hour as with Mystery Babylon, and it is ALWAYS fatal.

So if you look at the 6 trumpets, they fit the description of tribulation and in fact is the Beast making war against the saints. Immediately AFTER the 7th trumpet, God pours out HIS wrath upon Mystery Babylon.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Christian2]

You guys never stop arguing. There is such peace in the Lord, for He will show you the correct end-time view.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

We are not arguing................. we are debating............... THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. A debate you go into to challenge your views and get other perspectives.

When I post…………… and I am sure many others ........we all Understand that we are not just posting to the one we are speaking to but to everyone who comes and reads.

People read their bible and have questions many many many who come are just guests.

This allows them to see the various perspectives. It is all to easy to say a whole religion is evil and all who follow are bound for hell. this is said of the Catholics all to often. Such lies are not found in the Truth of our Lord.

Jesus knew all to well that Satan would come after he left and that the truth would be scattered. No one Christian faith can say it holds the whole Truth........for each holds a piece of the truth

Mk:9:38: And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Jesus responds

[39] But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. [40] For he that is not against us is for us.

[41] For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

The truth is Jesus knew there would be 10 major Christian Faiths at the time of the End.

Mt 25:1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

These ten Virgins are the Ten churches of Christianity soon these ten churches will be put to the Test who will have the golden oil that is the truth of the word of God and who will not and follow the AC.

So this is not arguing this is being diligent and studying so that we may be wise and be found with the golden oil and our robes washed white in the blood of the lamb.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Just the Facts,

These ten Virgins are the Ten churches of Christianity soon these ten churches will be put to the Test who will have the golden oil that is the truth of the word of God and who will not and follow the AC.

The 10 virgins have nothing to do with 10 churches. The PARABLE teaches that "no one knows the day or the hour" of His return. You may want to check out some of histories Bible expositors to verify this, if you don't believe me.

We are given ONLY 7 churches in the book of Revelation. These were actual churches at the time of the writing, but they represented a "spirit" that was upon each one. That could be a subject by itself concerning "principalities and powers", but suffice to say, that these 7 spirits have existed throughout the church history, and in my studies I have learned that there are also 7 church ages and the last one will be dominated by a "spirit of the Laodician church". All you have to do is look around you and see all the false prophets and all the wishy-washy supposed Christians that fit the description of this church to know that it is very dominant these days, probably more so in the future.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Symes]

The last week of Daniel's 70th week (Danial 9) begins with a treaty between the beast and Israel.

Eddielee

You have not taken into account the full prophecy of Daniel 9 when making the above statement.

Here is what Daniel says from chapter 9

24 "Seventy 'sevens' [3] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [4] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."

That is 70 X 7 equals 490

We know that the 490 is 490 years. (if you want we can have a study on that but for now will not)

The Jewish nation would have 490 years to "to finish [4] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness"

You cannot decide to separate any of the 70 weeks. It is not possible to do that and follow sound Biblical understanding.

More from Daniel 9

"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [6] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [7] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [8] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [9] In the middle of the 'seven' [10] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Note here in the middle of the blast seven the there will be put to end the sacrificial system.

This was when the Messiah would be cut off or put to death. Then there would be another 3.5 years for the Jewish nation to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They did not do that and at the end of the 3.5 years Stehen was stone and then the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

There is no other reasonable explanation for the 490 years and the last 7 years of the prophecy.

Luke 3:1


John the Baptist Prepares the Way

"1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene"

He reigned from 12 AD - 27AD. It was in his 15th year that Jesus was baptised. Then in the middle of that last week be crucified.

Every detail of the prophecy came about just as it said it would.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Symes,

This was when the Messiah would be cut off or put to death. Then there would be another 3.5 years for the Jewish nation to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They did not do that and at the end of the 3.5 years Stehen was stone and then the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

This is grasping at straws to salvage a failing doctrine. We agree (I think) that the promise to Daniel was that by the end of the 490 years, Israel would be restored to "righteousness". But it didn't happen, Israel sought righteousness as by the law, their hearts were hardened and the Gospel went to the Gentiles. This was all a part of God's plan. But God had not forsaken Israel for there remained 3 1/2 years wherein ALL Israel will be saved AFTER the "fulness of the gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)". Please read Deut 4:26-31. It describes very clearly those last 3 1/2 years wherein Israel shall be restored to righteousness.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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