Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

συνείδησις · Jul 3, 2018

Hank77 said:
No my question was in regards to Abraham. Abraham was given the same promise as his son and grandson.

Have any of those 3 inherited the land yet? btw, the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15 was to him and his seed, who is Christ. It wasn't to anyone else.

MartyF · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
You are accusing me of gnosticism without furnishing examples. I would like to see proof of your claims.

Well, if you won’t read your own quotes I can’t force you. Since you seem to have forgotten, this is what I asked.

“How are your beliefs different from Gnosticism?”

Here is your quote -

Dave L said:
But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world.

συνείδησις · Jul 3, 2018

MartyF said:
Standard Gnosticism.

Dave L said:
It would help if you could point out specific areas of similarity.

See post 7. I wouldn't call it standard gnosticism, but that view certainly contains a similarity with gnostic dualism, i.e., material vs spiritual.

Hank77 · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
The Church is the body of Christ, it has no unbelievers. It is not a church state nor is it a physical institution.

I agree and I don't see where ST Augustine would disagree with that.

DavidPT · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
What theory does this fit under? Is it a physical kingdom? If so, is it biblical? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.

You don't believe Jesus will ever return to the earth and stay here forever? But if you do believe that, what about the kingdom then? It will still not be of this world, yet would obviously be in this world if Jesus is in this world. Once the 2nd coming occurs, how can the kingdom not literally physically materialize at the time?

συνείδησις · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
The Church is the body of Christ, it has no unbelievers. It is not a church state nor is it a physical institution.

The body of Christ is a corporate entity comprised of physical beings.

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The body of Christ is a corporate entity comprised of physical beings.

Yes, but not man made institutions that include unbelievers.

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
You don't believe Jesus will ever return to the earth and stay here forever? But if you do believe that, what about the kingdom then? It will still not be of this world, yet would obviously be in this world if Jesus is in this world. Once the 2nd coming occurs, how can the kingdom not literally physically materialize at the time?

When Jesus returns, the heavens and earth pass away with a loud noise and all is burnt up. This ushers in the New Heaven and Earth. This alone says any "forever" passages in the OT need interpretation.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10)

“looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:12–13)

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
See post 7. I wouldn't call it standard gnosticism, but that view certainly contains a similarity with gnostic dualism, i.e., material vs spiritual.

Here's Peter and Jesus on the matter.

Jesus now sits on David's Throne since his resurrection/ascension Acts 2:29 through Acts 2:33. Jesus earlier said this kingdom was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

And one must be born again to see it John 3:3. It is the kingdom many still look for physically in Premillennialism and Dispensationalism even though it has been here unnoticed and in heaven since Pentecost 33 AD. Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne 1 Chronicles 29:23 until the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world 1 Corinthians 15:21–26.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.” (Revelation 20:11)

““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” (Matthew 25:31)

Kingdom of God in time and later in eternity

Hank77 · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Have any of those 3 inherited the land yet? btw, the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15 was to him and his seed, who is Christ. It wasn't to anyone else.

Ah....I think I see what you are getting at. That subject is outside this OP discussion, isn't it?

Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

MartyF said:
Well, if you won’t read your own quotes I can’t force you. Since you seem to have forgotten, this is what I asked.

“How are your beliefs different from Gnosticism?”

Here is your quote -

This is what Jesus said: not me: he said “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

He also said at the beginning of his ministry it was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

Hank77 · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Have any of those 3 inherited the land yet? btw, the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15 was to him and his seed, who is Christ. It wasn't to anyone else.

Actually I forgot these scriptures that explain.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

MartyF · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
This is what Jesus said: not me: he said “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

He also said at the beginning of his ministry it was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

The Bible wasn’t meant to be read with a razor blade and glue stick. Neither existed when it was written. It doesn’t help with understanding.

It’s quite difficult to figure out if you are arguing for a strange form of prophecy Paul warned against in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Or are arguing against straw men which don’t exist. I don’t think anyone since the Pharisees of Jesus’ time would believe that the U.S., or Papacy, or Israel was the Kindom of God.

Or are arguing against the Physical Kingdom discussed in 1 Thessalonians and elsewhere.

Or something else . . .

I asked something to try to get you to explain what you actually meant.

Anyway, you might want to be a little less defensive and explain more clearly what you are talking about.

Marty

DavidPT · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
This is what Jesus said: not me: he said “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

He also said at the beginning of his ministry it was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

What about this passage though? This passage doesn't say the kingdom of God is at hand, but is nigh at hand when ye see these things come to pass. This verse is connected with the following verses.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Verse 33 is obviously referring to 2 Peter 3:10. 2 Peter 3:10 obviously hasn't been fulfilled yet. That has to mean the kingdom of God in verse 31 is not at hand until these things all fulfilled first.

συνείδησις · Jul 3, 2018

Hank77 said:
Actually I forgot these scriptures that explain.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

But he yet hasn't inherited the physical land.

Verse 16 says that he reached for heavenly things that were better than Ur of the Chaldees where he came from; the word country is not in that verse. He was seeking the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

What about this passage though? This passage doesn't say the kingdom of God is at hand, but is nigh at hand when ye see these things come to pass. This verse is connected with the following verses.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Verse 33 is obviously referring to 2 Peter 3:10. 2 Peter 3:10 obviously hasn't been fulfilled yet. That has to mean the kingdom of God in verse 31 is not at hand until these things all fulfilled first.

Thanks for asking. Please consider:

“So when they had gathered together, they began to ask him, “Lord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He told them, “You are not permitted to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.” (Acts 1:6–7)

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day or hour no one knows it—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son—except the Father.” (Mark 13:31–32)

The Kingdom is here now, as already shown. But the end of the world and the restoration will come at a time known only to the Father.

But here's another thought. The pre-tribber knows when the end happens. It is 1007 years from the "rapture". Or the Premillennialist knows too, it is 1000 years from Christ's return. This alone shows how wrong these views are.

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

MartyF said:
The Bible wasn’t meant to be read with a razor blade and glue stick. Neither existed when it was written. It doesn’t help with understanding.

It’s quite difficult to figure out if you are arguing for a strange form of prophecy Paul warned against in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Or are arguing against straw men which don’t exist. I don’t think anyone since the Pharisees of Jesus’ time would believe that the U.S., or Papacy, or Israel was the Kindom of God.

Or are arguing against the Physical Kingdom discussed in 1 Thessalonians and elsewhere.

Or something else . . .

I asked something to try to get you to explain what you actually meant.

Anyway, you might want to be a little less defensive and explain more clearly what you are talking about.

Marty

If Jesus said what he said above, the kingdom is here. But only the born again can see it.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

Dave L · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
But he yet hasn't inherited the physical land.

Verse 16 says that he reached for heavenly things that were better than Ur of the Chaldees where he came from; the word country is not in that verse. He was seeking the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Not to butt in, but Canaan is temporal, to end in fire. But the Promise is eternal.

συνείδησις · Jul 3, 2018

Dave L said:
Not to butt in, but Canaan is temporal, to end in fire. But the Promise is eternal.

Nevertheless, Abraham hasn't yet inherited what was promised to him (by blood covenant, no less). Whether it is eternal or not is irrelevant.

However, the earth isn't going anywhere. The world system and its works will end, but not the earth. Man was made to dwell on earth, not in heaven. GOD the father will come to earth once it is cleansed of all rebellion, as it was in the beginning.

claninja · Jul 3, 2018

συνείδησις said:
But he yet hasn't inherited the physical land.

συνείδησις said:
Nevertheless, Abraham hasn't yet inherited what was promised to him (by blood covenant, no less). Whether it is eternal or not is irrelevant.

Genesis 15:18-20 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadie of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

Abraham lived in the promise land:
Genesis 24:3 I want you to swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living,

Abraham was buried in the promiseland:
Genesis 25:10 the field Abraham had bought from the Hittites. There Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah

God fulfilled his promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
Joshua 21:43 43So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there.

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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