Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Dave L said:

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)

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Dave, pre-trib is a misnomer. What is actually meant is pre-70 week. The rapture may happen pre-70th...but it is not a certainty. But it also means we should not rule it out, and to be looking. Stay in the positive. It is the blessed hope.

The certainty is in 1Thessalonians5.

Following 1Thessalonians4;16-18, Paul continues in chapter 5, to indicate that the resurrection/rapture will be before the Day of the Lord begins. It is in verse 10, which also is followed by the same encouragement as Paul ended in chapter 4.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Because it cannot be pinpointed, only approximated, the Day of the Lord will begin totally unexpected - when the then Antichrist perceived messiah (for which the world will be saying peace and safety thinking they have entered the messianic age) goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. It says they will not escape.

Which is a diametrically opposite result, of what Jesus said to do in Luke 21:34-36 to escape. So the instructions in Luke 21:34-36 is the course of action for Christians to take.

Dave L said:

Which is an admission that no direct scriptural support exists. You must stack the deck to make scripture say what you want it to say.

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I have said that you refuse to backup what you say - so now you make it worse , by making things up - why is that ?
It would be better if you just said that you don't know nor understand the matter , but you make false statements and compile more false statements -

Where is the scripture proof of your claim ? there is none - you have been caught in a falsehood

Dave L said:

It still begs direct scriptural support, not stacking the scriptural deck to make it say what it does not say.

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It is an imperfect world, full of imperfect people. Don't always expect a satisfactory explanation from posters here - you are going to get a wide variety of results, no matter what the topic. Some are going to be really good; others not so much.

The pre-trib notion comes from the notion that in 2thessalonians2:3-4, the revealing of the man of sin - which triggers the Day of the Lord - of him being revealed in his time (verse 6) - which "in his time" to pre-trib is when the person confirms the covenant to begin the 7 years, not when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

Also there has over the years, a mindset instilled to call the 7 years - the tribulation or tribulation period. It is not accurate, because the first part will not be tribulation, but the world thinking it is in the messianic age. Nonetheless, the tendency by many is to call the 7 years the tribulation.

Dave L said:

Which is an admission that no direct scriptural support exists. You must stack the deck to make scripture say what you want it to say.

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Do you believe in the Holy Trinity ? if yes can you please show a singular scripture that proves it? If not would you say it is stacking the deck in order to prove it

Douggg said:

Dave, pre-trib is a misnomer. What is actually meant is pre-70 week. The rapture may happen pre-70th...but it is not a certainty. But it also means we should not rule it out, and to be looking. Stay in the positive. It is the blessed hope.

The certainty is in 1Thessalonians5.

Following 1Thessalonians4;16-18, Paul continues in chapter 5, to indicate that the resurrection/rapture will be before the Day of the Lord begins. It is in verse 10, which also is followed by the same encouragement as Paul ended in chapter 4.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Because it cannot be pinpointed, only approximated, the Day of the Lord will begin totally unexpected - when the then Antichrist perceived messiah (for which the world will be saying peace and safety thinking they have entered the messianic age) goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. It says they will not escape.

Which is a diametrically opposite result, of what Jesus said to do in Luke 21:34-36 to escape. So the instructions in Luke 21:34-36 is the course of action for Christians to take.

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by quoting 1 thessalonians 5:10, it appears you believe that the rapture is when any believer goes to heaven upon physical death?

claninja said:

by quoting 1 thessalonians 5:10, it appears you believe that the rapture is when any believer goes to heaven upon physical death?

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I believe the rapture takes place in conjunction with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, their bodies. The rapture is the translation of them who are alive at the time. There is no reason to make it complicated.

The expression is..."sleep" in the text.

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Dave L said:

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

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No rebuttal from me. I agree with you.

It’s pretty clear in scripture that God’s kingdom is not of this world; that He is Spirit and thats why we must now worship in the spirit and walk by the spirit.

The ‘Holy City’ New Jerusalem is heavenly. This is our land of promise.
We are born again, in the spirit, this is how we see the kingdom of God.
We are given a new heart and made a new creation with new desires in Christ.
We are Jews who are not circumcised by the flesh but are Jews inwardly.
All who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

So much scripture showing us that but doctrines of man have taken the place of God’s word in the church. It’s a sad state we’re in, as the church, right now. There’s so much wrong teaching that as a new believer, like I was a few years ago, that it makes finding God really hard. I found that if I truly only stick to believing scripture for what it says that God will give me understanding. I’ve got a lot of books by many authors that are no more useful to me than kindling for fire.

Douggg said:

I believe the rapture takes place in conjunction with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, their bodies. The rapture is the translation of them who are alive at the time. There is no reason to make it complicated.

The expression is..."sleep" in the text.

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

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what do you believe 'sleeping' in christ means? how does one sleep and live together with christ?

συνείδησις said:

GOD made a blood covenant with Abram as surety that he would give to him the land of Canaan (Genesis 15:8, 18)). GOD's not a liar. The kingdom of GOD will come to earth.

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If you read OT scripture you’ll have to realize that, prophetically, it describes the shadow of things to come but NT is the revealing of those things.

Here’s the promise to Abraham:
Gen 17:5-8 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

First - he is father of many nations, not just the chosen people (Israelites) by blood descendants. (Rom9:6-8)
Second - he is given an everlasting covenant that is given to his offspring(seed), Jesus is the offspring(seed) and everlasting covenant.(Gal3:25-29)
Third - he is given the land of his sojourning as an everlasting possession. All the land Canaan being ‘the worldly’.(Heb11:8-16)

So the land promised is heavenly:

Heb 11:8-10 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

He goes on to say:

Heb 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Jesus told his disciples this:

Joh 14:1-4 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”

Then the revelation of Jesus to the church is this:

Rev 21:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

The promised land is the ‘Holy City’ New Jerusalem, the city of the saints, adorned as a bride.

It’s an awesome revelation!

claninja said:

what do you believe 'sleeping' in christ means? how does one sleep and live together with christ?

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Sleep is used to describe the physical body 'at rest' as in Rest In Peace , the physical body that has flesh and bone is dead , but the spirit/soul is alive and in the presence of the Lord Jesus , the term 'dead in Christ ' refers to people that are believers in Christ that have died physically . When Paul says " whether we wake or sleep " he means alive or dead believers in Christ , just as it is said ...' to die In Christ is to gain ' ..

What then of when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep? Wasn’t he physically dead?

Joh 11:11-14 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Dave L said:

I can show direct quotes from scripture revealing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being God. You cannot do this with the pre-trib rapture. Plus, if it does not exist as a direct statement of scripture, your claim, being eschatological in nature, adds to the book of Revelation.

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I agree.
Pre-tribulation is a fabrication through dispensationalism which was propagated by Scofield. It’s all bunk. There’s absolutely no scripture showing it to be.

2Pe 3:5-13 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

1Th 5:1-9 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Luk 12:35-43 “Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” 41 Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Dave L said:

I can show direct quotes from scripture revealing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being God. You cannot do this with the pre-trib rapture. Plus, if it does not exist as a direct statement of scripture, your claim, being eschatological in nature, adds to the book of Revelation.

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You don't understand fundamental l basics , you seem to operate like unto street fighting where you attack at will without provocation just because you think you are right even though you can't prove it - I operate like unto the judicial system that says "innocent until PROVEN guilty " while the defense will have a defense support it is not necessary to present it UNTIL the accuser has officially presented their case . Making an accusation is Not presenting a case , In every courtroom in America it is ALWAYS the accuser Must Prove their case in order to win - NOT just merely accusing , You made an allegation and I have have asking you to prove what you say ever since and you have not shown anything at all to prove your case - which shows you don't have a case at all , Nothing more than an accusation

Myself could care less if you choose not to believe , as it matters not to me at all what you choose to believe - I simply expect you to prove what you say to be true
The whole premise on which you operate is nothing more than make an accusation
There is no single scripture that says Father , Son and Holy Spirit are all God ,

You do not understand WHY a rapture happens . which is why don't understand the topic

Dave L said:

But the NT does not teach a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib "rapture". The only passage directly supporting what you might call a "Rapture" happens on the last day after the resurrection of the saints.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

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The Bible clearly teaches a Pre-trib Rapture. You can not even have a Revelation chapter 19 without a Pre-trib Rapture.

Being WITH THE LORD doesn't mean what you think it means, it means being in the PRESENCE of Gods Spirit continually forever, we only have glimpses of that on earth, we need refilling, some lose their salvation etc. etc. At the time of the Rapture we will be in the PRESENCE of Gods Spirit forevermore, just like God WALKED WITH Adam, before Adam sinned. We will return with Jesus from Heaven on White Horses (which only represents a CONQUERING JOURNEY), to defeat the Beast, his minions and to lock up Satan in the bottomless pit. I think we the Bride then go back to Heaven to finish the New Jerusalem while the BEHEADED of Rev. 20:4 stay ON EARTH to rule with Christ 1000 years, thus when New Jerusalem Descends it is called the Bride of Christ because we are in it while it descends.

The Pre Trib Rapture is the only type of Rapture that can be imminent, the Second Coming is A KNOWN EVENT, it will happen 1260 Days to the day after the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem. It will be understood to be on the way, the people on earth will see the Seven Vials COUNTED DOWN, when the 6th Vial Arrives (The Gathering of the Armageddon Armies) everyone on earth knows what is coming next except the dead, it will be Jesus landing on the Mt. of Olives !! So how can anyone be surprised by that brother ? The Rapture Event of Matthew 24:36-51 is when two will be in the field, and one will be taken and one will be left, of course this was just a demonstration, it could be 50 left and ONE TAKEN (few there be that finds the way). But there could be 2 In a Field and ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT, its still a truth. There could be a field with 50 LEFT and ONE TAKEN if you catch my drift, its just a demonstration.

The Rapture and the SECOND COMING are not nor could it be the be the same event. The Wheat are ISRAEL they remain ON EARTH the TARES are the Wicked of Satan, they grow together until THE END.......the Church is Raptured and returns with Christ Jesus, SEE rev. 19.