Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi all. My friends and I just released a video. It takes a post-tribulation positoin and it's a little under 5 minutes in length, so not too long. I look forward to hearing what others think.

 

[LastSeven]

Although I disagree with a lot of what you said, I like that you brought up the point about Lot's wife. However, after that point you seemed to lose focus a little bit. Or maybe I lost focus. Not sure which. Perhaps the video should only be two minutes long, and focus on your one strong point that people will remember.

 

[Charlie24]

To understand Matt. 24, one must read the book of Zech. Although Matt. 24 will effect the entirety of the world, Jesus is speaking of what will befall Israel in the last days.

"One will be taken and the other left" is not referring to the rapture, but the sudden loss of life that will take place instantly by the anti-christ. Zech. said that two-thirds of Israel will lose their lives, with many fleeing to Petra in Jordan.

Matt. 24 is Jesus warning Israel of the "abomination of desolation" which is the anti-christs invasion. Israel as a nation is unbelieving and sudden destruction will come, but Israel will believe when they see their Mesiah coming with great power to save the remaining one-third. The warrior Mesiah that Israel has been looking for will make His grand entrance. Zech. said there will be great mourning and sorrow in the land of israel when "they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced."

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Post-tribulation thinking has many flaws .... but here is just one

If all living believers will be made immortal just after the days of the Lord's coming tribulation and judgment upon the earth, then there will be no moral believers left to [procreate] populate His Millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but there will be

An immortal believer cannot be deceived by Satan [Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-8]

Immortal believers will not disobey the Lord's dictates during His millennial kingdom .... but there will be mortals who will [Zechariah 14:8-19]

And I will add this .... the gatherings of the mortal survivors of His judgment are not resurrection to immortality of anyone

Those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 25:31-46]

So if you are looking for your resurrection to occur at that time, whether dead or alive, it is not going to happen .... unless you enter the tribulation and are martyred, or you are one of the Lord's two prophets

If you are living at the time and do enter the tribulation, you will need to pay heed to this admonition [Revelation 3:9-15] .... your chances of compliance will be slim and next to none

Distractions and deceptions will rampant during the period and conditions will not be conducive for you

There are three events of the resurrection to eternal life recorded in scripture .... the pre-tribulation, and the resurrection of those who will become believers during the tribulation and martyred, including the Lord's two prophets .... these will all be resurrected just at the ending of the tribulation

 

[Straightshot]

"One will be taken and the other left" is not referring to the rapture, but the sudden loss of life that will take place instantly by the anti-christ. Zech. said that two-thirds of Israel will lose their lives, with many fleeing to Petra in Jordan"


Charlie is absolutely correct above .... the event is for Israel alone during the tribulation

.... nothing to do with the pre-tribulation event of the Lord making His true ecclesia immortal

 

[Another Lazarus]

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise
17.After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.(this is that ONE SHALL BE TAKEN)



Of course Lot was not raptured, you dont understand rapture is for the believers of Jesus.

the raptured saints shall be taken to the Throne:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

God, have pity for this man.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[Straightshot]

"Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."


Correct .... this is the Lord's pre-tribulation immortals and that is why they are seen in heaven while the tribulation plays out upon the earth

Here they are again [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] [those already on thrones]

 

[Luke17:37]

Hi all. My friends and I just released a video. It takes a post-tribulation positoin and it's a little under 5 minutes in length, so not too long. I look forward to hearing what others think.

Hi there. It has some good points.

When Jesus was referring to taken in Luke, I think you have to look up to Noah (Luke 17:26-29) to get the full context. The wicked were taken (destroyed) in the flood. The wicked were taken in Sodom and Gomorrah. Matthew 24:37-41 makes it clear that the "taken" is Jesus' main point about the day of the coming of the Son of Man being like the days of Noah. The wicked were taken. I disagree with the commenter above who talks about the antichrist. The antichrist kills many, but Jesus is talking about His coming and His judgment. Revelation 19:21 indicates the Lord will slay people and the vultures will eat their flesh... just what Luke 17:37 suggests. The mention of Lot's wife in Luke 17:32 is a reminder to us who are believers that we must not hold on to what God is in the process of destroying, but we must continue to obey Him completely. We can't turn back or we won't be saved. One of the ways a person can turn back is by trying to save his life or refusing to lose his life for the sake of Christ (v. 33). This is one reason why pre-tribulation rapture is so harmful. It puts people in a mindset of trying to save their lives. While it is true that God is going to protect the woman in the wilderness for 42 months, it most likely refers to the 144,000 Israelites who are faithful followers of the Lamb, who are sealed on the forehead and protected from the plagues. Since we can't assume to be one of these, it's best not to expect to survive the Tribulation.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The setting of those taken and left is in reference only to the remnant of Israel in the land during the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] [not the "church" of today] .... Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 is a focus upon Israel in the tribulation [Daniel 11:9:24-27; 11:41; 12:1-7; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

The Lord will pressure the remnant for turning to Him [Ezekiel 20:33-44] .... only 1/3 will turn .... the balance will be taken [killed] in His judgment [Zechariah 13:8-9]

Those believing mortals of Israel left will remain to enter and populate His millennial kingdom just after the days of the tribulation [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Matthew 24:29-31; Romans 11:25-36]

The 144,000 component [the first believers of Israel to turn in the tribulation] will witness and lead the 1/3 spared .... the Lord will be at the helm [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

Notice that today's "church" of His true immortal ecclesia are already in "heaven" during the tribulation period on the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]

If you are one of these at the time, you will be made immortal, will observe the tribulation upon the earth, will participate with the Lord at the battle of Armageddon, and will rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-38; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2;1]

If your are alive at the time and enter the tribulation upon the earth, you will have to repent in order to be saved just like today [Revelation 3:9-15] .... few of Israel and the Gentiles of the nations will do this during the period .... the tribulation environment will not be conducive to those who are under the Lord's unprecedented unrelenting judgment

If you do and are martyred for your faith, you will have to wait for you changing to immortality at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7; Revelation 14:13] .... and you will then rule With Him over His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Revelation 20:4]

If you survive the tribulation as a mortal and are found believing at His appearing upon the earth at the end of the tribulation, you will enter and populate His millennial kingdom [Matthew 25:31-46]

..... If you are found in unbelief, you will be rejected and will not enter, but will remain outside of the kingdom

And I will add that the Lord's true ecclesia will never give up their faith .... even if He does not keep them from His coming judgment

However, this will not be the case .... He will make good on His promise [Revelation 3:10; 18:4] .... no doubt

The true believer in Jesus Christ living at the time does not need to be judged by His coming wrath upon an unbelieving world [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9]

The idea that these need His particular judgment of the tribulation period is false .... and obviously neither will the dead in Christ experience the same

The truth is that the dead in Christ and those living at the time will made immortal together at the same moment just before

If you are one who is refuting His promise to keep you from His coming judgment and are alive at the time .... check yourself out .... there is something wrong with this idea

There is one who will tell you that you need to be judged in the coming tribulation as if the Lord's promise of salvation is not sufficient to save you

And when you hear this lie, ask why those already dead in Christ will never enter the tribulation, but will be saved in spite of it

The one who is suggesting is none other than Satan .... and He has motive

To refute and discount the Lord's promises, and to find one unsaved in the tribulation .... and to deceive, kill, and prevent one's saving in the first place [Revelation 12:12]

Do not listen to the father of lies [Genesis 3:4-5]

Listen to the Father of Light [Revelation 3:10]

 

[Razare]

Lot vs. Lot's wife is not relevant to the church.

The type and model for Christians is Abraham. Though we are among the world, we do not belong to it. John 15:19

Lot nor his wife are the fathers and types of the Christian faith, rather Abraham is.

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. - Romans 4:16

And if you notice, Abraham went around lying and disobeying God, but God blessed him anyway. Abraham was not in Sodom when judgement hit that place because he did not belong to Sodom, just as the Christian church does not belong to the world system as a matter of covenant rights. The new covenant is a 1-way covenant. There is no contingency for performance on the side of the Christian for the covenant to be enacted and upheld.

We are made unto good works, but the covenant was not established on our works, and therefore cannot fail based upon deed, because our deeds were excluded. Ephesians 2:9

So I think trying to use Lot and his wife for Christian eschatology doesn't reveal anything at all about the church. Abraham is the revelation of the bride of Christ relating to the judgement of Sodom. Can you all see the difference? Abraham interceded for all of Sodom, not just Lot. As Christians, it's our job to intercede for others. But the judgement that hit Sodom, in no way affected the father of our faith.

What Lot and his wife do reveal, are those very verses you gave in that video. You were correct to pair those two verses, but the interpretation would not have us apply it to the Christian church. When Jesus discusses various eschatological topics, almost always, he is referring to tribulation saints that are not the church. Saint in the New Testament can refer to either Christians or Jews. It does not refer only to new covenant Christians.

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people (saints) who had died were raised to life. - Matthew 27:51-52

This verse in Matthew occurs at the death of Jesus Christ, not at his resurrection. There were no Christians at this juncture, because no man had received the Holy Spirit for salvation. Christ had not rose from the dead. These saints are not Holy Spirit filled Christians.

So the correct way to apply Abraham, Lot, and Lot's wife to Eschatology would be as follows:

Abraham / The Church (Friends of God) = 1 Thessalonians 4:17 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Genesis 7:16 (Noah was "in-Christ", as the Ark was a type of Christ, avoiding all judgement and wrath) Genesis 18:22-33 (Abraham intercedes for Sodom) Revelation 3:10 (The Church of Philadelphia, the type of the church before the tribulation, the overcoming church... this church is spared from the hour of trial upon the whole Earth because they endure patiently.)

Abraham is a friend of God, according to these verses: Genesis 18:20-21 because Christ said: John 15:15 and since the plan to destroy Sodom was revealed to Abraham, Abraham was a friend of God. Christ said, we are his friends because he has revealed all to us. John 15:15

We serve God, but first and foremost, we are friends of God just as Abraham was a friend of God. James 2:23

Lot / Saved Tribulation Saints (Servants of God) = Luke 17:22-37 Matthew 24 Matthew 25

Notice often in Christ's ministry when talking eschatology, Christ calls the people "servants" not friends. See Matthew 24:45-50 also Matthew 25:21-51

In the parable of the 10 bridesmaids we see a fulfillment of Lot and his Wife. 1/2 of the virgins are saved, the others are left in the outer darkness. Matthew 25:1-13

These servants endure to the end to be saved: Matthew 24:13 ... if you notice, "enduring to the end" is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with his death, burial and resurrection. Rather, just proclaiming the Messiah is coming, doing good works under the old covenant laws (Deuteronomy 6), and keeping on doing it, is the basis of their salvation.

Christ's atonement is not needed in this manner of salvation. 10 virgins is a type of the law as well, 10 never represents the New Testament church.

Lot's Wife / Destroyed Tribulation Saints (Servants of God) = Matthew 8:12 Matthew 22:13 Matthew 25:30 (whole 10 virgins parable) Matthew 7:21-23

Again, 10 virgins is a type of the law. 12 would be the number for the church. 12 also relates to Jews who have entered Jerusalem above. It's why the 144k specially sealed, can be divided into 12 tribes of Israel.

12 (Heavenly Jews) + 12 (New Covenant Believers) = 24

In heaven, there are 24 Elders. It is symbolic of 12 + 12 which means the following: by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands (the laws with the tribulation saints keep and do not set aside) and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, - Esphesians 2:15

In heaven, then the 2 are 1, which is why 24 is used.

 

[Razare]

To understand Matt. 24, one must read the book of Zech. Although Matt. 24 will effect the entirety of the world, Jesus is speaking of what will befall Israel in the last days.

"One will be taken and the other left" is not referring to the rapture, but the sudden loss of life that will take place instantly by the anti-christ. Zech. said that two-thirds of Israel will lose their lives, with many fleeing to Petra in Jordan.

Matt. 24 is Jesus warning Israel of the "abomination of desolation" which is the anti-christs invasion. Israel as a nation is unbelieving and sudden destruction will come, but Israel will believe when they see their Mesiah coming with great power to save the remaining one-third. The warrior Mesiah that Israel has been looking for will make His grand entrance. Zech. said there will be great mourning and sorrow in the land of israel when "they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced."

Thanks for sharing this. It taught me something and I believe you're spot-on. I had always believed before it was referring to a rapture-like event at the end of the tribulation, but the way you put it makes a lot more sense. Especially at the very end when it talks about the vultures circling.

 

[Straightshot]

Charlie is right .... Matthew 24 is a specific focus upon Israel ... note the locations given

There is no discussion about the "rapture" or any resurrection in the passage and this is because today's true ecclesia will be made immortal before the setting in Matthew 24

Those of Israel who turn to their Messiah and King during the time of Jacob's trouble [1/3] will survive the tribulation will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; 27:12-13; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Zechariah 12; 13:8-9; 14; Matthew 24:29-31] .... the balance of Israel's unbelievers [2/3] will be killed and lost forever .... thus all of believing Israel will be spared [Romans 11:25-36]

The vultures symbolize judgment upon those of Israel who will refuse to believe, and these will be the "ones" taken in the judgment .... the 1/3 will be "left" [spared]

 

[miknik5]

My comment

Post-tribulation thinking has many flaws .... but here is just one

If all living believers will be made immortal just after the days of the Lord's coming tribulation and judgment upon the earth, then there will be no moral believers left to [procreate] populate His Millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but there will be

An immortal believer cannot be deceived by Satan [Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-8]

Immortal believers will not disobey the Lord's dictates during His millennial kingdom .... but there will be mortals who will [Zechariah 14:8-19]

And I will add this .... the gatherings of the mortal survivors of His judgment are not resurrection to immortality of anyone

Those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 25:31-46]

So if you are looking for your resurrection to occur at that time, whether dead or alive, it is not going to happen .... unless you enter the tribulation and are martyred, or you are one of the Lord's two prophets

If you are living at the time and do enter the tribulation, you will need to pay heed to this admonition [Revelation 3:9-15] .... your chances of compliance will be slim and next to none

Distractions and deceptions will rampant during the period and conditions will not be conducive for you

There are three events of the resurrection to eternal life recorded in scripture .... the pre-tribulation, and the resurrection of those who will become believers during the tribulation and martyred, including the Lord's two prophets .... these will all be resurrected just at the ending of the tribulation

Sorry I misread your post. I thought you were saying that those who enter into the 1000 year reign are immortal

 

[miknik5]

Charlie is right .... Matthew 24 is a specific focus upon Israel ... note the locations given

There is no discussion about the "rapture" or any resurrection in the passage and this is because today's true ecclesia will be made immortal before the setting in Matthew 24

Those of Israel who turn to their Messiah and King during the time of Jacob's trouble [1/3] will survive the tribulation will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; 27:12-13; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Zechariah 12; 13:8-9; 14; Matthew 24:29-31] .... the balance of Israel's unbelievers [2/3] will be killed and lost forever .... thus all of believing Israel will be spared [Romans 11:25-36]

The vultures symbolize judgment upon those of Israel who will refuse to believe, and these will be the "ones" taken in the judgment .... the 1/3 will be "left" [spared]

Sorry straight shot. I misread your post

 

[miknik5]

I owe you an apology straight shot for misreading your post. I realized that you were giving a scenario that you did Not believe in

 

[Straightshot]

Not a problem .... I was a bit confused by your response

 

[miknik5]

Not a problem .... I was a bit confused by your response

So sorry

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie is right .... Matthew 24 is a specific focus upon Israel ... note the locations given

There is no discussion about the "rapture" or any resurrection in the passage and this is because today's true ecclesia will be made immortal before the setting in Matthew 24

Those of Israel who turn to their Messiah and King during the time of Jacob's trouble [1/3] will survive the tribulation will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; 27:12-13; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Zechariah 12; 13:8-9; 14; Matthew 24:29-31] .... the balance of Israel's unbelievers [2/3] will be killed and lost forever .... thus all of believing Israel will be spared [Romans 11:25-36]

The vultures symbolize judgment upon those of Israel who will refuse to believe, and these will be the "ones" taken in the judgment .... the 1/3 will be "left" [spared]

That's right! Jesus doesn't mention the rapture in Matt. 24, all of this happens immediately after the rapture. Christ comes back to the rapture beginning in chp. 25 with the parable of the ten virgins.

Matt. 25:6
"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

This is the rapture.

vs. 7-9
"Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves."

The oil represents the Holy Spirit. These were the foolish who departed from the truth and lost their souls, no longer led by the Spirit of God.

vs. 10
"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

The marriage spoken of here is the marriage supper of the Lamb for those who were ready when the Lord came. "The door was shut," and now Matt. 24 begins.

 

[Straightshot]

You have it Charlie .... right on

Open door [Revelation 3:10] .... oil .... shut door [Revelation 3:9-15] .... no oil

Connecting the dots of scripture

 

[miknik5]

Whst do you make of those who did not have enough oil ?

They will enter into the tribulation

But they knew the Truth.

Could they possibly fall back from following the Lord?

Or will they hold to the testimony of Jesus and therefore be killed

Are these included in with those who did not love their lives even to the death.