ERVs place common descent beyond any reasonable doubt.

[joshua 1 9]

Only by people who don't understand medicine and are easily fooled by lousy statistics.

This started off as an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) one of the most respected Medical Journals. The leading cause of death is Heart Disease and that is largely preventable with what we currently know about diet, exercise and stress control.

Most doctors are fairly well convinced that they keep people alive longer and it it were not for doctors then people would not live as long as they do. So it does not bother them that they are a leading cause of death. Even though we know it is diet, exercise and stress control that keeps people alive.

There are 21 verses in the Bible on how to live a long life.
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/How-To-Live-Long

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Any scientific conclusion based on human reasoning is always doubtful.

Sorry, you have just admitted your reasoning is doubtful so why should we listen to you?

We have a protection against doubtful reasoning. Its called checking and reviewing. Its called finding flaws and pointing them out. I suggest you do that instead of merely asserting the reasoning is doubtful.

 

[The Cadet]

given the fact that all life shares DNA, i'm more than confident you can find similarities between any 2 lifeforms you wish to compare.

...Do you know how genome sequencing works? Or how we determine genetic distance? Or how we check ERVs for common descent?

you could no doubt "prove" humans were direct descendents of bananas if you looked at it in the right way.

I'll take that as a "no".

 

[whois]

...Do you know how genome sequencing works?

i'm aware that it takes start and stop bits to determine the length of a sequence.
this implies some sort of feed back process to tell DNA when to stop coding.
this further implies that there must be an ongoing process that tells DNA what the coded protein is for.
both of these processes must be operating to generate the given sequence.

Or how we determine genetic distance?

yes, i would very much like to know how science determines how "old" a gene is.

Or how we check ERVs for common descent?

with the implementation of HGT, we can most likely expect ANY type of "descent".

I'll take that as a "no".

any material understandable to the layman would be helpful.

 

[Barry Desborough]

You can only falsify man's traditions by establishing your own traditions. You can not falsify the Bible one iota. There has been a lot of new information come along that allows us to better understand the Bible. Even science constantly has to change their beliefs as new information becomes available. One is the same as the other in this regard. We are told to "beware of leaven of pharisees". Just like we are told "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." So we always need to be careful with what we do and do not accept.

In science, a notion is falsified by doing experiments and making observations that contradict the notion. This ERV evidence contradicts the notion that humans are a special creation that is unrelated to other forms of life.

 

[Barry Desborough]

with the implementation of HGT, we can most likely expect ANY type of "descent".

Retroviruses are capable of transferring genetic material between different species, but this does not account for large numbers of commonly located ERVs in the DNA of two species. Only inheritance from common ancestors can do this.

any material understandable to the layman would be helpful.

See the first link in my OP. If you want anything explained more carefully, let me know.

 

[Barry Desborough]

since when does "making sense" equate with "evidence"?
the RNA hypothesis for abiogenesis makes all the sense in the world.
unfortunately it isn't even close to being evidence.

The task of science is to make sense of evidence. What I am saying is that common descent is the only notion that makes sense of this evidence.

 

[whois]

Retroviruses are capable of transferring genetic material between different species, but this does not account for large numbers of commonly located ERVs in the DNA of two species. Only inheritance from common ancestors can do this.

commonly located, as in the same place?
are you saying these ERVs are immune to transposition?.
furthermore, how do you know they are ERVs and not HGT or evolved?

See the first link in my OP. If you want anything explained more carefully, let me know.

this one?:
erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/ERVs+FAQs+from+Creationists?responseToken=004f8bb933179dd0330cb0674aa64fc03

why are you calling it "from creationists"?
i don't want something from creationists.

 

[lasthero]

commonly located, as in the same place?
are you saying these ERVs are immune to transposition?.
furthermore, how do you know they are ERVs and not HGT or evolved?

this one?:
erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/ERVs+FAQs+from+Creationists?responseToken=004f8bb933179dd0330cb0674aa64fc03

why are you calling it "from creationists"?

If I had to guess, because it answers frequently asked questions from creationists.

 

[Barry Desborough]

commonly located, as in the same place?
are you saying these ERVs are immune to transposition?.
furthermore, how do you know they are ERVs and not HGT or evolved?

this one?:
erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/ERVs+FAQs+from+Creationists?responseToken=004f8bb933179dd0330cb0674aa64fc03

why are you calling it "from creationists"?
i don't want something from creationists.

"Commonly located" means in corresponding loci in both genomes. See http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/ervs.htm#Amount_of_Shared_ERVs

ERVs are great transposers. A new ERV may be acquired by the direct endogenization of an exogenous (free in the environment) retrovirus or by transposition. The logic of common ancestry is the same in both cases. Integrase is involved in both cases and it does not target specific loci. Specific locus correspondence comes from inheritance.

HGT or evolved? See http://erv-faq-for-creationists.wik...s?+Isn't+that+just+supposition+on+their+part?

Lasthero has answered your last question for me.

 

[whois]

"Commonly located" means in corresponding loci in both genomes. See http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/ervs.htm#Amount_of_Shared_ERVs

ERVs are great transposers. A new ERV may be acquired by the direct endogenization of an exogenous (free in the environment) retrovirus or by transposition. The logic of common ancestry is the same in both cases. Integrase is involved in both cases and it does not target specific loci. Specific locus correspondence comes from inheritance.

HGT or evolved? See http://erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/Why+do+virologists+and+geneticists+think+that+ERVs+come+from+retroviruses?+Isn't+that+just+supposition+on+their+part?

Lasthero has answered your last question for me.

maybe i was expecting too much when i requested something for the common man to understand.

i looked for some experimental results but i didn't find any.

also, is this what is called DNA hybrid analysis?

 

[Barry Desborough]

maybe i was expecting too much when i requested something for the common man to understand.

i looked for some experimental results but i didn't find any.

also, is this what is called DNA hybrid analysis?

If you have any specific questions about the material I linked to, I will do my best to answer them.

References to papers giving experimental results are made throughout the first paper I just linked to in my previous reply, and there is a comprehensive reference section at the end. My material (the FAQ) is an educational piece, and only refers to the peer reviewed papers indirectly, via links. You can help me improve it by telling me what you do not understand.

Sequencing by hybridisation is one of the techniques used in genome sequencing and comparison. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_sequencing

 

[whois]

If you have any specific questions about the material I linked to, I will do my best to answer them.

my biggest question in regards to this stuff is, how does HGT and ERV compare with one another.

Sequencing by hybridisation is one of the techniques used in genome sequencing and comparison. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_sequencing

yes, i know it's one technique used, i asked if your analysis uses this technique.

 

[Barry Desborough]

my biggest question in regards to this stuff is, how does HGT and ERV compare with one another.

yes, i know it's one technique used, i asked if your analysis uses this technique.

Retroviruses may transfer host genes horizontally, but they integrate using integrase, which does not target specific loci. I know of no methods of HGT that do target specific loci.

These are not my analyses. The sequencing methods are described in the relevant papers. See http://www.evolutionarymodel.com/ervs.htm#References

 

[joshua 1 9]

In science, a notion is falsified by doing experiments and making observations that contradict the notion. This ERV evidence contradicts the notion that humans are a special creation that is unrelated to other forms of life.

I am a dispensationist so for me a day is 1000 years. Clearly around 13 thousand years ago there was global warming. Ice turned into water and at the time there was a extinction followed by a radiation or a population explosion. Nothing unusual there. What happened 6 thousand years ago in ancient Mesopotamia was unusual though. This was the beginning of animal husbandry and agriculture as well as civilization. Adam, Abraham and Moses were given insight into what God was doing at the time and what He continues to do today. Science has put huge amounts of study into the dawn of civilization and the beginning of farming and agriculture.

In some ways the primitive part of the human brain, the brain stem is better then the more advanced evolved part of the brain. But that gets into a whole different story then what happened in Eden in the Tigris Euphrates River Valley around 6,000 years ago as we read about in our Bible and as archaeology confirms to be true. In the case of the Hebrew people their recorded recorded history can be confirmed with artifacts and with evidence from the natural record.

Just the fact that we have recorded history for the last 6,000 years is significant. The fact that man is able to examine himself the way he does and examine his role in the universe is different from all the other species. So if you do not think that is not special then perhaps you need to explain to me what you think is special. I know science does not understand the record that has passed down to us from Adam but it is still there for us to examine as Moses preserved it to this very day.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Data, with a checkable source?

According to Wiki: "ERV's are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates". So that is what the conversation is about until someone presents evidence of ERV's in something other then Jawed vertebrates.

 

[Barry Desborough]

I am a dispensationist so for me a day is 1000 years. Clearly around 13 thousand years ago there was global warming. Ice turned into water and at the time there was a extinction followed by a radiation or a population explosion. Nothing unusual there. What happened 6 thousand years ago in ancient Mesopotamia was unusual though. This was the beginning of animal husbandry and agriculture as well as civilization. Adam, Abraham and Moses were given insight into what God was doing at the time and what He continues to do today. Science has put huge amounts of study into the dawn of civilization and the beginning of farming and agriculture.

In some ways the primitive part of the human brain, the brain stem is better then the more advanced evolved part of the brain. But that gets into a whole different story then what happened in Eden in the Tigris Euphrates River Valley around 6,000 years ago as we read about in our Bible and as archaeology confirms to be true. In the case of the Hebrew people their recorded recorded history can be confirmed with artifacts and with evidence from the natural record.

Just the fact that we have recorded history for the last 6,000 years is significant. The fact that man is able to examine himself the way he does and examine his role in the universe is different from all the other species. So if you do not think that is not special then perhaps you need to explain to me what you think is special. I know science does not understand the record that has passed down to us from Adam but it is still there for us to examine as Moses preserved it to this very day.

By "special creation", I mean direct dirt-to-Adam creation, bypassing evolution by descent with modification.

 

[Barry Desborough]

According to Wiki: "ERV's are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates". So that is what the conversation is about until someone presents evidence of ERV's in something other then Jawed vertebrates.

Commonly located ERVs make it clear that jawed vertebrates are related to one another. This falsifies evolution-denial.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Claims that ERVs are limited to jawed vertebrates0

Barbarian suggests:
Data, with a checkable source?

According to Wiki: "ERV's are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates".

That doesn't support your claim.

So that is what the conversation is about until someone presents evidence of ERV's in something other then Jawed vertebrates.

No problem...

Cross-species Transmission History and Evolution in the LIneage of Gammaretroviruses and related Endogenous Retroviruses

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are DNA fragments found dispersed in a wide range of genomes, from invertebrates to mammals, that resemble members of the Retroviridae viral family (termed here exogenous retroviruses or XRVs). Because XRV replication involves integration into the host chromosome, it is generally assumed that ERVs are the result of ancient XRV infections, which have passed into the germ-line of the host and expanded within it.
http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/103127_en.html

Any other questions?

 

[Barry Desborough]

(Claims that ERVs are limited to jawed vertebrates0

Cross-species Transmission History and Evolution in the LIneage of Gammaretroviruses and related Endogenous Retroviruses

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are DNA fragments found dispersed in a wide range of genomes, from invertebrates to mammals, that resemble members of the Retroviridae viral family (termed here exogenous retroviruses or XRVs). Because XRV replication involves integration into the host chromosome, it is generally assumed that ERVs are the result of ancient XRV infections, which have passed into the germ-line of the host and expanded within it.
http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/103127_en.html

Any other questions?

Amazing, the hoops creationists jump through to avoid the obvious, isn't it? Quoting (and misinterpreting) a single sentence in Wikipedia - a source they usually pooh-pooh. The only quibble I have with your quoted text is that it is not assumed that ERVs are the result of ancient XRV infections. It is concluded, from the evidence. Evolution deniers will jump on careless wording like this and use it as a feeble excuse to avoid the bleeding obvious.

http://erv-faq-for-creationists.wikispaces.com/Why+do+virologists+and+geneticists+think+that+ERVs+come+from+retroviruses?+Isn't+that+just+supposition+on+their+part?