Errors of Dispensationalism

PeterAV · Sep 4, 2006

(1) Question: The Lord in the book of Revelation says that the tribulation saints take part in the first resurrection. Explain how pre-trib ends up with a resurrection prior to the 'first' one.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

timlamb · Sep 4, 2006

PeterAV said:
(1) Question: The Lord in the book of Revelation says that the tribulation saints take part in the first resurrection. Explain how pre-trib ends up with a resurrection prior to the 'first' one.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Pre-trib dosen't believe in a pre-tribulation resurection, just a pre-trib rapture. We are gathered in the air to be with Him. I am not sure what you mean by first resurection with trib. saints. The first resurection was 3 days after the cross. I know about a second comming but not a second resurection.

stratt · Sep 4, 2006

PeterAV said:
(1) Question: The Lord in the book of Revelation says that the tribulation saints take part in the first resurrection. Explain how pre-trib ends up with a resurrection prior to the 'first' one.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

if you died yesterday.... you would go to the same place you would go if you were raptured.... dont you think?

In other words... we must be with christ, BEFORE we are given new bodies. We are not given new bodies... until all the saints are in heaven.... but the pre trib saints will be with christ without their new bodies and waiting for the rest of the saints to come..

stratt · Sep 4, 2006

timlamb said:
Pre-trib dosen't believe in a pre-tribulation resurection, just a pre-trib rapture. We are gathered in the air to be with Him. I am not sure what you mean by first resurection with trib. saints. The first resurection was 3 days after the cross. I know about a second comming but not a second resurection.

He is reffering to the last chapter in revelations that speaks of a 1st resurection for the saints and a 2nd ressurection unto eternal damnation..... i think.

What its saying is that both the good and the bad are resurected..... with a 1000 year time space in the middle.

Driver · Sep 4, 2006

stratt said:
He is reffering to the last chapter in revelations that speaks of a 1st resurection for the saints and a 2nd ressurection unto eternal damnation..... i think.

What its saying is that both the good and the bad are resurected..... with a 1000 year time space in the middle.

To be exact about it, it is Revelation 20, and it says:

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, it's the "second death" that clearly involves those lost.

biblebeliever123 · Sep 4, 2006

Dispensationally considering scripture is not the error. The error comes from ignoring dispensational consideration of scripture. You have PROPHECY and MYSTERY. If you ignore the 'mystery' revealed to Paul you are ignoring some important information for you as a member of the church which is his body.
The first resurrection of Revelation is talking about Israel's prophesied resurrection; actually 2 resurrections separated by a period of 1000 years. (John 5:28,29, Revelation 20:4-6) Verses 12 through 14 are about the final resurrection of the unjust who then experience the second death and go to the lake of fire.

The body of Christ will experience something that WAS a MYSTERY revealed to Paul.... (NOW WE CAN SEE IT..we've been told..let's not ignore it)

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The body of Christ is not appointed to wrath... will not go through the great tribulation and will be taken out before that happens...the "out resurrection" ...if you miss the mystery you miss that wonderful truth. It's not error....it's truth....we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

stratt · Sep 4, 2006

Driver said:
To be exact about it, it is Revelation 20, and it says:

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, it's the "second death" that is clearly those lost.

You know... here is the part i dont get.... people read this.... that we will reign for a thousand years.... but what do they think we will reign over if not israel???

If israel doesnt return as a earthly nation, who will christ and the saints reign over for a thousand years??

You know what i mean? It HAS to be israel... the kingdom of heaven.... it is clear to me.

Tractor1 · Sep 4, 2006

PeterAV said:
(1) Question: The Lord in the book of Revelation says that the tribulation saints take part in the first resurrection. Explain how pre-trib ends up with a resurrection prior to the 'first' one.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Wasn't Christ's resurrection the first? If so, how could the the passage in Revelation (20:4-5) be considered legitimate? There are other resurrection prior to the Tribulation saints, therefore the reference to first is according to kind rather than chronological order. The saved have a part in the first resurrection, the lost belong to the second.

In Christ,
Tracey

Dispy · Sep 4, 2006

PeterAV said:
(1) Question: The Lord in the book of Revelation says that the tribulation saints take part in the first resurrection. Explain how pre-trib ends up with a resurrection prior to the 'first' one.

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

PLEASE quote the verses in the book of the Revelation you are referring to. That would be a big help to understand just where you are coming from.

eph3Nine · Sep 5, 2006

stratt said:
You know... here is the part i dont get.... people read this.... that we will reign for a thousand years.... but what do they think we will reign over if not israel???

Thats where right division comes in , stratt.

"WE" (the Body of Christ) arent GOING to reign for a thousand years. GASP...thats right! This is a misconception born of NOT rightly dividing the scriptures and assigning promises and callings to Israel onto we the body of Christ.

WE, the Body of Christ will be in HEAVEN ...gone from the scene.

The ONLY ones ruling on planet earth will be the KINGDOM saints=IE: the JEWS of ONE NATION...as foretold in the SCRIPTURES.

NOWHERE are we, the Body of Christ told that we have an EARTHLY inheritance.

In FACT, the scripture SAYS that "OUR citizenship is IN HEAVEN"...

it also says that "WE, the Body of Christ, have ALL spiritual blessings in HEAVENLY places."

It also says, "We ARE seated IN THE HEAVENLIES IN CHRIST JESUS"...NO mention of earth here...NOT our promise or calling!

If israel doesnt return as a earthly nation, who will christ and the saints reign over for a thousand years??

Not to worry...God has said she WILL , and she WILL. The Body of Christ will be ruling in HEAVEN...we wont BE on the earth.

You know what i mean? It HAS to be israel... the kingdom of heaven.... it is clear to me.

It only SEEMS clear to you because you have not considered ALL of the pertinent information in order to make an INFORMED decision.

Israel is never promised HEAVEN. SHE KNOWS THIS...her promises were of REAL ESTATE, on the EARTH.

Faithandblood · Sep 5, 2006

<edited SJ>

John 8, When the Jews said to Christ that they were Abraham's desendants Christ said that If God wanted to he could make the stones desendants of Abraham, and that they for thinking that the were Heaven bound because of Race, that they were Children of the Devil!
Also the Gentiles (goyim) were grafted into the one tree, not two trees, yes there will be Jews grafted back in, but only through Jesus.

We, the Church is the seed of Abraham, the spiritual seed, the physical seed is no more! Just as the temple has been replaced by Christ and now the Church.

With love in Jesus the fulfiller of the types and shadows,
Charles

Driver · Sep 6, 2006

stratt said:
You know... here is the part i dont get.... people read this.... that we will reign for a thousand years.... but what do they think we will reign over if not israel???

If israel doesnt return as a earthly nation, who will christ and the saints reign over for a thousand years??

You know what i mean? It HAS to be israel... the kingdom of heaven.... it is clear to me.

Note that in Verse 4 John sees souls (not bodies) reigning with Christ a thousand years, and he says "this is the first resurrection."
Many interpret the first resurrection as the new birth and the second as a general bodily resurrection for both the righteous and wicked.

Amillennialists interpret the thousand years as the age in which we are now living. Both premillennialists and postmillenialists believe the thousand years is still in the future. Here's an interesting discussion of the premillennial and amillenial views: http://www.apocalipsis.org/rev-20.htm

Driver · Sep 6, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Israel is never promised HEAVEN. SHE KNOWS THIS...her promises were of REAL ESTATE, on the EARTH.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:16

Dispy · Sep 6, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Israel is never promised HEAVEN. SHE KNOWS THIS...her promises were of REAL ESTATE, on the EARTH.

Driver said:
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:16

Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

You will find a discription of that city in Revelation 21:9-27. BTW, It appears that that city is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (vs.9).

Smileyill · Sep 6, 2006

What I've been taught about Dispensationalism
is different than what I'm reading here. I understand it to refer to the different dispensations in the Bible. E.g. pre-sin, pre-flood, pre-christ, pre-trib. etc.

eph3Nine · Sep 6, 2006

Smileyill said:
What I've been taught about Dispensationalism
is different than what I'm reading here. I understand it to refer to the different dispensations in the Bible. E.g. pre-sin, pre-flood, pre-christ, pre-trib. etc.

If you would like a really good short book that explains the differences between Prophecy and the MYSTERY and Gods present plan for this dispensation of GRACE and the "preaching of Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY", please PM me and I will send it to you for FREE.

Dispy also has the book entitled "THE MYSTERY" by Joel Finck for free.

Biblical Dispensationalism has to do with the way in which God has told us to study His Word in 2 Tim 2:15

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that does NOT need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH"

This means making distinctions between Gods PROPHETIC program with the Nation ISRAEL and the MYSTERY program with we, the Church, which is His BODY.

We are to keep the two DISTINCTLY SEPARATE as God intended and NOT mix them up or blend them into ONE.

Smileyill · Sep 6, 2006

Ah yes, that's what I've been taught. I mostly agree. And thank you for the offer, but I read on the subject before. Specifically, I read "Hear's the Difference" by William MacDonald.

GLJCA · Sep 6, 2006

biblebeliever123 said:
Dispensationally considering scripture is not the error. The error comes from ignoring dispensational consideration of scripture. You have PROPHECY and MYSTERY. If you ignore the 'mystery' revealed to Paul you are ignoring some important information for you as a member of the church which is his body.
The first resurrection of Revelation is talking about Israel's prophesied resurrection; actually 2 resurrections separated by a period of 1000 years. (John 5:28,29, Revelation 20:4-6) Verses 12 through 14 are about the final resurrection of the unjust who then experience the second death and go to the lake of fire.

The body of Christ will experience something that WAS a MYSTERY revealed to Paul.... (NOW WE CAN SEE IT..we've been told..let's not ignore it)

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The body of Christ is not appointed to wrath... will not go through the great tribulation and will be taken out before that happens...the "out resurrection" ...if you miss the mystery you miss that wonderful truth. It's not error....it's truth....we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

This scripture 1 Cor 15 is not dealing with the rapture because the rapture will not be at the end according to Dispys.

When does Christ put down all rule and authority according to Dispy teaching? Isn't it after the so-called rapture? If you would have read the whole chapter you would have seen that Paul is not writing about a so-called rapture but the second coming at the end of the world.

1 Cor 15:23-25 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15 is speaking of the end that is why it is the LAST TRUMP OF GOD and it happens at the end of the world when Jesus Christ has put down all rule and authority.

According to Dispy teaching Jesus doesn't put down all authority and rule until after the so called rapture and after the so-called 1000 year reign. So obviously this could not be speaking of a so-called rapture. Matter of fact there is no scriptural basis at all for a so-called rapture.

Sorry guys but there is no such thing as a rapture. You are just going to have to learn to cope.

GLJCA

stratt · Sep 6, 2006

GLJCA said:
This scripture 1 Cor 15 is not dealing with the rapture because the rapture will not be at the end according to Dispys.

When does Christ put down all rule and authority according to Dispy teaching? Isn't it after the so-called rapture? If you would have read the whole chapter you would have seen that Paul is not writing about a so-called rapture but the second coming at the end of the world.

1 Cor 15:23-25 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15 is speaking of the end that is why it is the LAST TRUMP OF GOD and it happens at the end of the world when Jesus Christ has put down all rule and authority.

According to Dispy teaching Jesus doesn't put down all authority and rule until after the so called rapture and after the so-called 1000 year reign. So obviously this could not be speaking of a so-called rapture. Matter of fact there is no scriptural basis at all for a so-called rapture.

Sorry guys but there is no such thing as a rapture. You are just going to have to learn to cope.

GLJCA

Hmm.... I cant answer all of this, but i am pretty sure that jesus "puts down all authority and rule" 7 years after the rapture, at the battle of armagiddo. This will be followed by the 1000 year reign. So really, jesus takes up his rule durring the battle... the outcome of wich, leads to the aforementioned 1000 years.

Being "caught up" to be with the lord, is mentioned in revelations.... "caught up" from latin is translated rapture. So why would you believe it wont happen?

eph3Nine · Sep 7, 2006

LOL....NO rapture??? LOL LOL

Well then I guess we throw out all the rest of the MYSTERIES of God that were revealed to Paul as well.

This is a prime example of one who doesnt KNOW, neither does he want to know, what instructions are given to we the Body of Christ today. In fact. without the information given by DIRECT REVELATION to Paul by the RISEN Christ...there wouldnt even BE a "Body of Christ".

Nice try, but no cigar. The rapture is ONE of fourteen doctrines given to Paul by Christ Risen and glorified. Try telling your Lord and Savior that it doesnt exist! He says it DOES!

Errors of Dispensationalism

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