I take your point re: angels, and the sense in which I can accept your assertion that TULIP ( which is only one facet of the thing called "Calvinism"), is "man centered" is not a bad thing, but a circumstantial point of view that has a respectable amount of legitimate basis.
Most of your criticism of "Calvinism" seems to indict motive rather than logic.
I find it frankly, overwrought. But you present me an opportunity bring some of my other "larger views" into alignment with TULIP.
"If God limited Himself in the atonement
He is a limited God who is not fully Sovereign over all that He has created."
That is not a necessary conclusion for the following reason.
His Self is not His decision. His decision not to choose to have mercy on everyone served His stated purpose in Romans 9:20-23
His limit on the number saved allowed judgement to happen as He iterated it in scripture. Full sovereignity includes judgement and wrath, not simply mercy.
Even Jesus iterated limits both to His revelations to men and to the number given to Him by God. That in no way "limited Jesus".
This passage from John 6 gives more evidence that salvation is not, at least in this context, universal.
"[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
[42] And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
[43] Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Please don't view this as a defence of Calvinism, it is simply about the cannons of Dordt (TULIP).
And thanks for school's me on the angels and the Genesis plurals, I 'm still lookin' into that. Very cool.
Hi Rick,
There is a "complexity" in what is stated in scripture. God is entirely appropriate. For example, if God regarded the just and the wicked "exactly the same"... then, it would not be just of God. Because, the wicked are wicked and the just are just. To regard them "the same" would be promotion of evil.
I would agree that my remarks about Calvinism are "overwrought".
It was truly an effort to shout fire in a crowded theatre. Because there is so much "right" with Calvinism regarding God being appropriate in time... when the wicked are wicked and the just are just... and the reality of God's Sovereignty... well, I guess I think it takes really shouting "fire!" to provoke discussion. I'm writing a book, and I will put that in the book.
There is so much "right" about Calvinism, that I heightened what is wrong to try to catch attention... and make the challenge that can be felt by a Calvinist: that it's man-centered doctrine (which is the opposite of what a Calvinist intends).
Total depravity is correct. But, it is only true of the reprobate.
The scripture is in tiers. There is an application of the scripture within time when there are the wicked and the just that is entirely appropriate.
God knows that the reprobate in time are literal devils in human flesh appearing. Jesus knew that only the elect would come to Him during their human lifetimes. All of that is true.
But, the whole spectrum level only sees that in Calvinism... and it's an incomplete view that cannot rightly divide the whole of scripture.
For example, the reprobate are still under common grace... even though they are reprobate and will die in their sins.
When believing that man is a new race not only according to flesh... but spiritually... there is no solution to the logic puzzle.
When seeing that mankind is the incarnate race of angels... the whole of scripture opens up... entirely consistent with the whole of scripture.
God is so gracious... that He was longsuffering with the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
What love the Father has given... to make the whole Genesis creation for the purpose of the cross of Jesus... so that the devil (the spirit of sin) would be destroyed not in part but the whole.
What grace that the Father would create the human race... so devils could be made human. They cannot be saved in their human lifetime. But the whole reason we are all here is so that they can be saved on the Last Day.
The elect are saved by grace.
The reprobate are saved by fire.
It takes seeing the whole counsel to see the wonderful grace of Jesus dying not only for the elect but also the reprobate... saving only the elect in human lifetime... and then the reprobate by fire on the Last Day.
There is an inherent spiritual difference between the elect and the reprobate. God speaks according to that unseen reality in the scripture you quoted.
But the larger picture beyond that time fragment in which the scripture is rightly divided to say that only the elect can be saved in this lifetime... is that God's plan is appropriate.
Just because God wills to save all and all shall be saved...t hat does not mean there is no difference between the holy angels made human and fallen angels made human.
Scripture reveals the truth that there is that difference between the elect and the reprobate.
Election is not unconditional. It is by foreknowledge.
Election of the elect to salvation in this lifetime is being used as an evidence that God does not will to save all. He does and did. He simply saw what is not seen by Calvinism: that the reprobate are devils incarnate who cannot be saved in this lifetime; the elect in spirit are foreknown as holy angels and are automatically without fail saved in this lifetime as the result.
But, God knew that. God knew the reprobate would not and could not be saved in human lifetime due to their spirit level making that impossible. But, God also knew that the Atonement was All-sufficient... and their salvation would be through fire in manifest destruction of all evil in them on the Last Day.
Jesus is a Perfect Savior... and it is a Perfect Plan... fully appropriate to the reality of the spiritual state of man... as the incarnate race of angels.
God is appropriate towards the reprobate in their human lifetimes because they are in a spiritual state of total depravity that cannot be rectified in their human lifetimes. It is not that all mankind are the same and God in an arbitrary manner chose only to save the elect. RAther, the truth is that it is only possible to save the elect in their human lifetimes... and they shall indeed without fail be saved in their human lifetimes.
It is great grace and longsuffering whereby God created the reprobate as humans... suffered their evil... has appropriate vengeance and wrath upon them in their evil... yet destroys their evil completely.... on the Last Day.
The Calvinist view is very, very limited... makes errors not seeing the larger picture... but has many things right... and everything else is "off" just a bit but significant.
The elect are never in a state of total depravity... but prevenient grace. Their spirit man is never a child of the devil. Their spirit man is always a child of God... and they just await God's grace for justification/regeneration. It's a given. And given before time.
K, well, that's a lot said... and I recall being a 5 point Calvinist. Not sure now, anymore, how to communicate this side of the line... to call the 5 Pointers to my side of the line. Hard to communicate now because of what I see, trying to think of what the other sees.
But, by the grace of God, soon God will reveal it in Sovereign power so we see the spirit level together. I believe this is a Sovereign move of God just beginning... and it will move as the Reformation did centuries ago... in God's time.
God bless!
Laura Lee
