Ernie Knoll not a prophet?

When I first heard of Knoll a few years ago, I went to his site and read his dreams and what he had to say and automatically knew he was a fraud. I don't know how--I just knew. And so I never went back to that site nor did I give any more credence to all the noise about him.

I know this is after the fact (he admitted to lying), but no one has brought this up.

In one of his dreams, he stated the 144000 and the multitude are different groups. I don't remember which dream. I have his audios saved on my computer. The text links of his dreams are gone from the websites. So if anyone recalls it, I don't have to go over all the audios.

I had always believed the 144000 and multitude are the same group. So when it was stated otherwise in his dream, it definitely caught my eyes. My thinking at that time was that maybe I was wrong and my belief was based on incomplete information.

But I didn't abandon my position on this because I had done quite a bit of research. It didn't leave me to reject his dreams either, because after all this (144000 and the multitude) is still a controversial issue with no clear-cut answer from the bible.

Two night ago, I was reading the book Last Day Events on the Jacob's Time of Trouble. I came across this statement.

Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:14-17. {GC 648.3}

In the above statement SOP identifies the great multitude as the 144000 by quoting directly from Rev 7:14-17 KJV.

This is the clear proof I had been looking for to link the two groups as one.

I think this is definitive that the dreams contradict the bible and the SOP, therefore can not be from God.

honorthesabbath said:

When I first heard of Knoll a few years ago, I went to his site and read his dreams and what he had to say and automatically knew he was a fraud. I don't know how--I just knew. And so I never went back to that site nor did I give any more credence to all the noise about him.

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For me, my personal feeling was not enough. I simply couldn't trust my own feelings. I needed a concrete proof.

Here is a post on this subject I made in one of previous discussions here.


The bible also calls the 5000 that Jesus fed "great multitude".

Here is a quote from Maranatha. Note in this quote, the great multitude of Rev 7 is mentioned in a separate group from those "of all ages and were martyred for their faith."

"Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. . . . {Mar 339.2}

If the great multitude are those who will be resurrected at 2nd coming, then why didn't EGW include them in the first two groups?

Notice in the following quotes, EGW quotes Rev 7 on the great multitude and then followed up by writing we should strive to be among the 144000.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." {RH, March 9, 1905 par. 1}

Those whom the Lamb shall lead by the fountains of living waters, and from whose eyes he shall wipe away all tears, will be those now receiving the knowledge and understanding revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. To us has been given the privilege of receiving the wisdom that cometh from God, of seeing the beauty and the glories of that Word which lies at the foundation of all true knowledge. The Bible teaches us what a Christian ought to be, and what he ought to do. {RH, March 9, 1905 par. 2}

We are to copy no human being. There is no human being wise enough to be our criterion. We are to look to the man Christ Jesus, who is complete in the perfection of righteousness and holiness. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the pattern Man. His experience is the measure of the experience that we are to gain. His character is our model. Let us, then, take our minds off the perplexities and the difficulties of this life, and fix them on him, that by beholding we may be changed into his likeness. We may behold Christ to good purpose. We may safely look to him; for he is all-wise. As we look to him and think of him, he will be formed within, the hope of glory. {RH, March 9, 1905 par. 3}

Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand. And let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven. We are to have an intense interest in Christ Jesus; for he is our Saviour. He came to this world to be tempted in all points as we are, to prove to the universe that in this world of sin human beings can live lives that God will approve. {RH, March 9, 1905 par. 4}

Read the characteristics of the great multitude in Rev 7.

All of them are unique to the 144000. EGW used these to also describe the 144000 and the great multitude interchangeably.

Enter the temple: LS80 217.1, GC 648.3, Rev 7:15
Before the throne: GC 648.3, Rev 7:9, Rev 14:3, Rev 7:15,
Come out of the great tribulation: LS80 217.2, GC 648.3, Rev 7:14
Jesus shall serve them in the banquet: LS80 217.2, Rev 7:17
Have gotten the victory: Rev 15:2, GC 648.3, VSS 464.3
Standing on the sea of glass: Rev 15:2, GC 648.3, VSS 464.3
Having the harp: Rev 15:2, GC 648.3, VSS 464.3
Sing the new song: Moses and the Lamb: Rev 14:3, Rev 15:3, GC 648.3, VSS 464.
Washed their ropes white with the blood of the Lamb: GC 648.3, Rev 7:14
Wipe away tears from their eyes: GC 648.3, Rev 7:17,
Hunger no more, thirst no more: GC 648.3, Rev 7:16

One of the characteristics of the 144000 is that only they can enter into the temple and serve Jesus around the throne day and night. They in fact become the light bearer and replace Lucifer's (light bearer) original position as the covering cherub.

Rev 7
15 Therefore are they (great multitude) before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The hunger, thirst, heat, tears from angerish are thel things they have to experience during a time when it will be no mediator after general probation closes. And they are those that come out of the Great Tribulation. This is the last generation of believers that will be alive in the second coming. And the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

DarylFawcett said:

Where is this latest blanket email to be found?

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Here http://www.4hispeople.org/documents/ernie_knoll_ministry_update_8_5_2009.pdf

OntheDL said:

Here is a post on this subject I made in one of previous discussions here.

144000 and the Great Multitude​

The bible also calls the 5000 that Jesus fed "great multitude".

...
Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand. And let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven. We are to have an intense interest in Christ Jesus; for he is our Saviour. He came to this world to be tempted in all points as we are, to prove to the universe that in this world of sin human beings can live lives that God will approve. {RH, March 9, 1905 par. 4}

.

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That is a good collection. Thanks for sharing it.

Here is something I found regarding that "Great Multitude"

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. { DA 834.1}

But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. {DA 834.2}

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Here we have Ellen White "numbering"

I was born at Gorham, Maine, November 26, 1827. My parents, Robert and Eunice Harmon, were for many years residents of this State. In early life they became earnest and devoted members of the Methodist Episcopal Church. In that church they held prominent connection, and labored for the conversion of sinners, and to build up the cause of God, for a period of forty years. During this time they had the joy of seeing their children, eight in number, all converted and gathered into the fold of Christ. {CET 13.1}

Finally the time was appointed for us to receive this solemn ordinance. It was a windy day when we, twelve in number, went down into the sea to be baptized. The waves ran high and dashed upon the shore, but as I took up this heavy cross, my peace was like a river. When I arose from the water, my strength was nearly gone, for the power of the Lord rested upon me. I felt that henceforth I was not of this world, but had risen from the watery grave into a newness of life. {CET 20.4}

The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. {Mar 287.3}

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in Christ,

Bob

Man-ofGod said:

Some of the things that they (4hispeople ministry) is saying to explain away Ernie Knolls deception just does not fly with me. None of Gods prophets ever set out to deceive in all of scripture. Imagine what would have happen to Ellen White if she set out to deceive.

Yes, prophet’s backslid, but no prophet who obeyed God set out to deceive. I am sorry, I forgive the man, but God cannot fault me for not following him when he failed the test of a prophet according to His word.

Matthew7:15-20

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

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It's true God's prophet all fall short of God's will. But none of them set out to deceive the people.

BobRyan said:

That is a good collection. Thanks for sharing it.

Here is something I found regarding that "Great Multitude"

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There is no doubt there will be a great multitude, millions upon millions to come forth from the graves at the 2nd coming. The question is are those the same "great multitude" that come out of the great tribulation and endure Jacob's time of trouble?

Here we have Ellen White "numbering"

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From Ellen White's writings, this much is clear to me that the 144000 are literal in numbering.

I am very suspicious of such things. I think that I would have to pray, read the Bible, and feel drawn to a person. Not go to look....

While I don't think God has completely stopped using the 'Supernatural', I do think that He rarely uses it now. For some pretty obvious reasons, we would be amazed at the person and not God.

JM

Ellen White faced the same "no more prophets needed" response in her day. If you look at Uriah Smith's argument for the continuing need for contemporary prophets in his intro to Patriarchs and Prophets -- and if you look at C.F Cottrell's introduction to Spiritual Gifts volume 1 -- where Cottrell also makes the case for why the Christian church always needs contemporary prophets you will see how they responded to that view in the 1800's.

in Christ,

Bob

OntheDL said:

There is no doubt there will be a great multitude, millions upon millions to come forth from the graves at the 2nd coming. The question is are those the same "great multitude" that come out of the great tribulation and endure Jacob's time of trouble?



From Ellen White's writings, this much is clear to me that the 144000 are literal in numbering.

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Actually, the passage does indicate that the great multitude will come out of the great tribulation, which means they must go through it:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Revelation 7:9-17 NKJV)

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me for just jumping in, but I think if I were still an Adventist I would've been taken in by Ernie Knoll. I was involved in the Historic Adventist subset and was so desperate for some divine intervention I would've jumped all over his dreams. They were very traditional from what I understand?

Many offshoots claimed to be "traditional" such as Brimsmead for example and Shepherd's Rod groups. But that did not cause all traditional SDAs to follow after them. The mere existence of someone claiming to be traditional and then wanting to gain a following has never guaranteed them the majority of traditional SDAs would oblige them by following after them. So I am not sure what you can really know about what you "would have done" had you remained an SDA. Perhaps you would have rejected that ministry along with the majority of other traditional and conservative SDAs.

in Christ,

Bob

Not sure if any of you have heard, but Ernie is starting another website.

I was at the following webstie Dreams from Heaven - 4HisPeople.org and read about an email that he sent out explaining what happened.

I've grown to the point where I'm not too concerned one way or the other. I still believe that if he is true than what he said will come to pass, but if he is false than everything will fall through.

However what's of more interest to me is the two testimonies from two different individuals on that webpage. A 15 year old boy saw in a dream the destruction of Atlanta, and a couple testified to God speaking to them and impressing upon their hearts that Atlanta would be destroyed and that they needed to move to Indiana. Subsequently the husband was offered a position in Indiana and they moved.

I didn't think it'd be necessary to start a new thread on these dreams. Instead I was hoping to get some input from you guys about those additional dreams here. Has anyone else heard of anything of the sort?

The following, growing, Biblically analytical commentary on the ministry and revelations of Ernie Knoll may be helpful in this discussion:

For now see my profile's website. Post: "Testing the Spirits" 1 Cor 12:10 (Ernie Knoll)

God Bless!

Wow! So I was out of the SDA loop from 2008-2011. I had never heard of any of this. But much to my surprise how is 4hispeople still up and running? He admits to being a deciever and yet still continues? What is the latest on this? Just out of curiousity.