Equidistant Letter Sequence Coding

[Quasar92]

The oldest, complete Masoretic bible is just over a thousand years old. Quoting the wiki article also:' The precise order of consonantal letters represented in the Hebrew Masoretic Text was only finalized in its current form in the first century, largely through the energies of Rabbi Akiva. However, it is known from earlier versions, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the number of letters was not constant before this. The Bible code theory thus does not seem to account for these variations.[14],'

The only way the Bible codes have any value is if they reflect the actual spelling given by God. As the quote demonstrates, there is no evidence of fixed spellings prior to their finalization in the first century.

My remarks in post #16 come directly from the statements made by Yacovm Rambsel, that his findings come directly from the Hebrew Masoretic Text.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The oldest, complete Masoretic bible is just over a thousand years old. Quoting the wiki article also:' The precise order of consonantal letters represented in the Hebrew Masoretic Text was only finalized in its current form in the first century, largely through the energies of Rabbi Akiva. However, it is known from earlier versions, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the number of letters was not constant before this. The Bible code theory thus does not seem to account for these variations.[14],'

The only way the Bible codes have any value is if they reflect the actual spelling given by God. As the quote demonstrates, there is no evidence of fixed spellings prior to their finalization in the first century.

Do you have a copy of Yacov Rambsel's book, "His Name Is Jesus"? With your logic, it would seem we would not be able to believe our Bibles. Because they were printed so long after the authors wrote it.


Quasar92

 

[Steve Petersen]

Do you have a copy of Yacov Rambsel's book, "His Name Is Jesus"? With your logic, it would seem we would not be able to believe our Bibles. Because they were printed so long after the authors wrote it.


Quasar92

For codes to work, you have to assume the EVERY LETTER was given by God and there have been no alterations since the books were 'breathed.' Does that seem like a reasonable assumption given the myriad of textual variants that we find, even pre-dating Jesus?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Do you have a copy of Yacov Rambsel's book, "His Name Is Jesus"? With your logic, it would seem we would not be able to believe our Bibles. Because they were printed so long after the authors wrote it.


Quasar92

Not Rambsel's, but I owned the book that started it all by Drosnin just called The Bible Codes. Subsequently I bought Bible Codes software for Davka and used it. I know what I am talking about. I know how easy it is to adjust your interval, word direction, first or last letter use etc. until you come up with something the APPEARS significant.

Curiously, there have been NO code predictions of our immediate future that have come true in the decades since they were popularized. All Bible codes that seemed significant are ex post facto 'discoveries.'

 

[Steve Petersen]

The purpose of questioning you as to what source of material you had researched from, was that the Masoretic text is in Hebrew. Researching for codes in English texts of the Bible of of any other language has been proven to fail.

Although the existing copies of the Masoretic Text date back only to the tenth century, two other important textual evidences bolster the confidence of textual critics that it is accurate. The first is the successive discoveries of manuscripts at Qumran by the Dead Sea since 1947. These revealed portions of manuscripts several centuries older than any previously known. The second is the comparison of the Masoretic text to the Greek translation called the Septuagint (or LXX), which was written around 200-150 B.C. The oldest existing manuscripts date back to the fourth century A.D. Both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal an amazing consistency with the Masoretic Text, assuring us that God was indeed divinely and sovereignly protecting His Word through thousands of years of copying and translating.


Quasar92

Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes, I searched in the Hebrew Masoretic. The Codes software had a translation function for Hebrew-English and vice versa.

 

[FrankDux]

ELS are easily explainable within the context of statistical distributions

IOW, you can find " Jesus is messiah " in ANY book

People who get tripped up on things like this need to crack a few math textbooks

Also

There are different versions of the Torah which have wildly varying letter counts, and that right there completely destroys the validity of ELS

Also

What makes you think you could reveal the hidden things of scripture ?

Is it your birthright, or something ?

 

[Quasar92]

For codes to work, you have to assume the EVERY LETTER was given by God and there have been no alterations since the books were 'breathed.' Does that seem like a reasonable assumption given the myriad of textual variants that we find, even pre-dating Jesus?

And you are certain that what Rambsel found was not God breathed? I suggest for all who argue against his findings, read his book, "His Name Is Jesus," first.


Quasar92

 

[Steve Petersen]

And you are certain that what Rambsel found was not God breathed?

Question is, given manuscript history and evidence, how can you be certain that the documents Rambsel used were the 'God breathed' texts and that they have accurately transmitted from the end of the OT canon until today?

 

[Quasar92]

Question is, given manuscript history and evidence, how can you be certain that the documents Rambsel used were the 'God breathed' texts and that they have accurately transmitted from the end of the OT canon until today?

I read Yacov's book many years ago. He is a devout Jewish Christian, and I fully believe the long tedious hours he spent in compiling his works. Why do you waste your time arguing with me about it? If you don't want to believe his claims, your argument is with him, not with me. I do not need to give you any reasons why I believe his works, so there will be no further reply from me on any further argument about it from you.


Quasar92

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sod is the 4th level or layer of Torah interpretation. It is the secret or hidden meaning.

Yes, I believe God used many hidden meanings. For instance, clean and unclean meats.

 

[1stcenturylady]

For codes to work, you have to assume the EVERY LETTER was given by God and there have been no alterations since the books were 'breathed.' Does that seem like a reasonable assumption given the myriad of textual variants that we find, even pre-dating Jesus?

Steve, not just every letter, but every dot and tittle and space between the words.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Steve, not just every letter, but every dot and tittle and space between the words.

Can you show me such a document, one that has never had any textual variants in 3500 years?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Can you show me such a document, one that has never had any textual variants in 3500 years?

I was listening to a teaching by Chuck Missler on this. It was fascinating. He didn't invent this, just reported on it. The code is usually from the Old Testament BECAUSE of those least variants. Our New Testament has been tampered with a lot because of sects of Christians that did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. But there are other tests that have been done that have proven that only God could have written it. His signature in the New Testament seems to be the number 7. Like counting vowels and they are exactly divisible by seven. Or constanants, etc.

Steve, are you a sophisticated cynical man? Or do you have the faith of a child. If you are the first, you will always mock what you think is beyond your understanding.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I was listening to a teaching by Chuck Missler on this. It was fascinating. He didn't invent this, just reported on it. The code is usually from the Old Testament BECAUSE of those least variants. Our New Testament has been tampered with a lot because of sects of Christians that did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. But there are other tests that have been done that have proven that only God could have written it. His signature in the New Testament seems to be the number 7. Like counting vowels and they are exactly divisible by seven. Or constanants, etc.

Steve, are you a sophisticated cynical man? Or do you have the faith of a child. If you are the first, you will always mock what you think is beyond your understanding.

I have been studying these things for nearly 40 years. If you have followed this thread you will know that the oldest complete manuscripts in Hebrew of the OT are only 1000 years old. When you compare them with oldest, incomplete Hebrew texts of the OT from the Dead Sea caves these differ from the newer ones by about 5%. There is now way ELS can be a valid system given by God if there is even ONE letter difference.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have been studying these things for nearly 40 years. If you have followed this thread you will know that the oldest complete manuscripts in Hebrew of the OT are only 1000 years old. When you compare them with oldest, incomplete Hebrew texts of the OT from the Dead Sea caves these differ from the newer ones by about 5%. There is now way ELS can be a valid system given by God if there is even ONE letter difference.

Yes, true, UNLESS you are only using a small amount of verses that are intact.

 

[Quasar92]

I have been studying these things for nearly 40 years. If you have followed this thread you will know that the oldest complete manuscripts in Hebrew of the OT are only 1000 years old. When you compare them with oldest, incomplete Hebrew texts of the OT from the Dead Sea caves these differ from the newer ones by about 5%. There is now way ELS can be a valid system given by God if there is even ONE letter difference.

Yacov Rambsel could prove his findings to you in a heartbeat! FYI, many sources attribute the earliest Moses received the Torah, was in 1280 BC. You are inferring, changes of as much as 5% would make ELS an impossibility. Which is akin to saying our Bible is unreliable, because of scriptural drift from the originals. Yet, Jesus made it clear, heaven and earth will pass away, but His Word will remain forever, in Mt.28.


Quasar92

$0 years of studies is irrelevant as well as mine, of 80.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, true, UNLESS you are only using a small amount of verses that are intact.

Which limits your interval size.

 

[Quasar92]

Which limits your interval size.

You cannot prove YR wrong, but He can do so with your speculation about it. Nor can you win this argument or any other on the Web. I know that to be a fact, because I've spent 17 years participating on Christian websites. With that having been said, this will terminate my discussion with you over this subject.


Quasar92

 

[Steve Petersen]

With that having been said, this will terminate my discussion with you over this subject. Quasar92

So you keep saying.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Which limits your interval size.

Exactly!