Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[WarriorAngel]

Ok, so Etide, you believe in works after faith [grace]?

Good, we have a starting point of understanding.

Faith without works is dead. [so we have faith but no works, so faith is not going to save us alone]
Ok, and works without faith wont work either. Because we need faith for our works to merit anything.

Now, you agree you cannot know if I 'have faith in Christ'...and neither can I do this.

However, you are still not accepting baptism as a means for the Spirit to be your way to be born again thru water.

Which is called regeneration.

The Bible scriptures are clear that baptism is necessary.

Romans 6
4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Colossians 2
12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.

1 Peter 3
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Etc etc etc.

 

[mike1reynolds]

The Church practices immersion. There is no problem here.

God Bless

The Methodist church certainly doesn't, nor the RCC. I think it is an unnecessary health risk, even if slight, for a ceremony that is primarly for adults. It's not like we are dipping baby Achilles in the river Styx here. Babies don't have profound spiritual experiences, adults do. I think infant baptism does a whole lot more for the parents than the child. My experience with non-infant baptism was extremely intense and the fact that I was not immersed was of no consequence to it.

 

[mike1reynolds]

What ETide said. We cannot earn salvation by doing these things. They're supposed to result from our being saved, they do not save.

This is like saying the chicken definitely came before the egg. If someone doesn’t do these things then they clearly aren’t saved. The two are inextricably linked, one doesn’t come before the other, they come simultaneously.

I COMPLETEY agree that doing works for salvation is wrong, as you know, but I think you miss the point as to why. It has to do with selflessness vs. selfishness. Doing works to earn salvation is selfish, not virtuous. Works must be done with no expectation of them affecting your reward for it to affect your reward (let’s put salvation aside for a moment). You must let go of ALL of your expectations for reward for it to bring you merit, you must give over all the fruits of your labor to the Lord and claim none for yourself in order for the Lord to give any of it too you. It is your attitude about works that can ruin any merit, but that doesn’t mean that there is no connection between works and merit, it is just that ego and greed can destroy ALL that merit if you have a self-centered attitude about it.

Lynn, you said yourself that works do earn rewards in Heaven, but not salvation. What is the difference? How can there be a difference? Salvation is a reward too, it can’t be otherwise.

This is all summed up in one word: karma. Karma is real, there is no hiding place from the Father and the angels record EVERYTHING that you do. On Judgment Day that record will be the evidence that saves or damns us. If there is no connection between merit and salvation then that implies that God isn’t watching and doesn’t care what you do morally, does it not?

 

[JCrawf]

The Methodist church certainly doesn't, nor the RCC. I think it is an unnecessary health risk, even if slight, for a ceremony that is primarly for adults. It's not like we are dipping baby Achilles in the river Styx here. Babies don't have profound spiritual experiences, adults do. I think infant baptism does a whole lot more for the parents than the child. My experience with non-infant baptism was extremely intense and the fact that I was not immersed was of no consequence to it.

The Catholic position doesn't say that immersion is wrong, though. Whether immersion, pouring, or sprinking, the main aspect is that it indicates an infusion of the Holy Spirit (an outward sign of the inward grace, so to speak). As for infants not having profound spiritual experiences, we cannot say for sure. Certainly infants respond to stimulus, and the images at the onset of life outside the womb can potentially impart some effect in later experiences (maybe similar to your view of karma?). Some even believe that singing to a child or such stimulus even while they are in the womb can have some impact. This is because of a belief that infants do have a consciousness, even though they are at a stage where they cannot communicate what they might be percieving. But the theory is that stimulus at an early age may help the developing process of the child in the long run. It is statistically shown that children that have had their parents reading and talking - communicating and involving their children in various learning and environmental stimulus - are often better prepared for to learn at school, with some already able to read, or at least having a desired depth of prior knowledge that can be incorporated into the learning experiences and environment of school.

In a way, infant baptism kind of works on a similar sort of ideal, both spiritually, mentally, and physically. For there is the physical stimulus of the infant being marked with the seal of Baptism, the mental aspect (which one may consider more geared toward the parents and God-parents) wherein the child is obligated to be brought up as a Christian and catechized (educated) in the ways of Christ and the Apostles, and the spiritual stimulus (this may seem more geared toward the parents, but it also is imparted on the child) of which the mark indicates being a child of God and the necessity to be brought up in the Christian tradition. I know this sounds quite technical and scientific, but it is one way of describing what is taking place in infant baptism. One could say it is similar to the tradition in Baptist churches of dedicating a child to Jesus. Similar principles are being considered, though maybe through different theological and spiritual understandings. For Catholics (as well as Lutherans, Methodists and other Protestants that practice infant baptism), what would be similar to the "born again" Baptism would be Confirmation. For confirmation is essentially a strengthening of the covenant/dedication made in infancy.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, I dont know if Karma is a thrological teaching, but the fact the Lord is Omnipresent, omnipotent etc is.

Karma comes from the Delia Lama [sp?].

But I get your point.

For those of who wish to dicipher immersion vs this way or that.......there is another Apostolic writing not included in canon.....

Although they did not put this in the bible, the teachings are still pretty clear.

This can be used for official teaching.


Online Text for Didache

• <LI class="">Roberts-Donaldson English Translation <LI class="">English Translation by J.B. Lightfoot <LI class="">English Translation by Charles H. Hoole
• English Translation by Kirsopp Lake

 

[JCrawf]

We are not a "self proclaimed (sic) religious institution." We are a communion and Body of believers continuing in unity together since 33 AD.

Just make me think of a cool idea for a slogan on an ecumenical t-shirt:

Catholicism & Orthodoxy
Universal and World-Wide
Established In, And In Communion With
Christ And The Apostles
Since 33 A.D​

Any takers on doing the designing and manufacturing? ​

Yes, perish the thought that Orthodox and/or Catholics can think or study these matters out for themselves. If we did, it seems, we would agree with you???

In theory, that would be how Sola Scriptura works, but have you noticed how many proclaim this doctrine and do not agree among themselves?

I have suffered loss of reputation and have become an object of derision among some of the Evangelicals I once taught and/or fellowshipped with, for I have embraced something they do not understand. I hold no enmity or resentment, for I made an informed choice, one that I would make again, even if it cost my life. I am graced within the Beloved (eph 1:6)

Amen.

Though my journey to Catholicism wasn't (or at least I don't think of it as being) as hard as yours sounds, there have been those challenges of misunderstandings. Though primarily it has been online that I recieved the worst persecution for having converted from Protestantism to Catholicism.

And yes, Orthodox doctrine embraces the whole counsel of scripture, not just a few proof verses for a pet and formulaic soteriology. Scripture teaches that we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Jesus Christ made it clear in Matthew 25 that 'faith alone' will not save you, if it is not manifest in love for God's children. James echoes this obvious and fundamental theme which runs uninterrupted from the Five books of Moses (Torah) through the prophets, the psalms, the proverbs, and through the New Covenant.

For those of you who seem to gloss over this point:
"Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him." And what then? "He will make your paths straight."

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

Well, I dont know if Karma is a thrological teaching, but the fact the Lord is Omnipresent, omnipotent etc is.

Karma comes from the Delia Lama [sp?].

Karma is more of an oriental religious concept, believed to originate from Hinduism and then branching out into Buddhism. But yeah, the Dahli Lama does teach about Karma. But for all intents and purposes, I would considerit similar to concupisence in Catholic theology. Though Karma has to do with pretty much the consequences of all actions, good or bad. So maybe a combination of concupisence and merit in regards to Catholic theology, somewhat being connected with the virtues and vices as well. Not saying they are exact, but at least somewhat similar.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[ETide]

Ok, so Etide, you believe in works after faith (grace)?

NO, good works are the result of being SAVED.. When a person is sealed with the holy Spirit, by GOD, and placed into Christ, then they CAN do good works because they have Christ IN THEM..

Consider this verse from the Apostle Paul after he explains that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH, and that not of ourselves.. it is the GIFT OF GOD..

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

AND.. consider that our old man has nothing to do with this, but that it's rather the new man which GOD created IN US..

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is absolutely vital.. our old man has nothing to do with working righteousness, because he is corrupt.. God wants us to put that old man off, and put on the new man IN CHRIST which is created in righteousness and true holiness..

BUT, obviously CHRIST must be in us first.. or else we only have an old nature..

So, if you're not sure if you're saved.. then how could you possibly be doing good works.. ? If they're the product of the old man, then they are as filthy rags according to the scriptures..

So FAITH without works IS dead, because if Christ is not in you, then you're still DEAD in trespasses and in sins..

SALVATION is first, then good works IN CHRIST..

You need to be SAVED first, then there is plenty of time to do good works after CHRIST is in you, that new man, who is created after GOD in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[JCrawf]

NO, good works are the result of being SAVED.. When a person is sealed with the holy Spirit, by GOD, and placed into Christ, then they CAN do good works because they have Christ IN THEM..

Consider this verse from the Apostle Paul after he explains that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH, and that not of ourselves.. it is the GIFT OF GOD..

Yes, the grace in Baptism does infuse us with the Holy Spirit so that we do walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4) - that is to abide in the life we have in Christ, the life in the Holy Spirit. We Catholics are very familiar with St. Paul's teaching regarding life in the Spirit v. life according to the "flesh." The late Pope John Paul II had spoken on this in his Theology of the Body, which a book titled Theology of the Body Explained by Christopher West is a book I'd advise anyone interested in this teaching of Pope John Paul II to check out. He does a good job of presenting the teaching so that it does not fall into the Manichaean herecy in which matter and creation, and particularly the human body is considered evil. Yes, life in the Spirit means to be directed by the Spirit of God, but not to the point of vilifying the goodness of what has been created by God. For God did create the universe and called His creation good.

SALVATION is first, then good works IN CHRIST..

Not quite. There are natural virtues by which people may do good things, though not with a God-ward intent. It is with the Holy Spirit being infused that the Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity are aqcuired - not by any human effort, but by the grace of God. And this grace being infused allows for the God-ward aspect of the works, as well as a strengthening of the will by way of the Holy Spirit in order to do such works.

So, if you're not sure if you're saved.. then how could you possibly be doing good works.. ? If they're the product of the old man, then they are as filthy rags according to the scriptures..

Personally, I don't worry about having a complete assurance of my salvation. I am certain that Christ died on the cross for mine and the salvation of the world, as the Scriptures say. I am also certain that if I remain in the life of the Spirit, the selfless love of Christ in which has infused faith, hope, and charity for me to do the good works in Christ that I am likely to be saved. But I do not presume to know my election among the Saints in heaven, for that seems sinful and arrogant to me. I certainly hope for heaven and to see God face to face. But for now, I consider the words of the Apostle:

"Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love." (I Cor. 13:8-13)

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[Lynn73]

It isn't arrogant to believe what the Bible tells us and it tells us we can know we're saved.

 

[Lynn73]

Lynn, you said yourself that works do earn rewards in Heaven, but not salvation. What is the difference? How can there be a difference? Salvation is a reward too, it can’t be otherwise.

I'm sorry but the Bible says salvation is a gift received by faith, NOT a reward for works. See Ephesians 2:8-9. The difference between salvation and rewards is just that, one is a gift received by faith the other is earned by faithful service. Is that so hard to see? It's not going to be the same for everyone in heaven. If you're unable to see the difference, I don't know how else to explain it to you.


1 Corinthians 3:11-15 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

 

[WarriorAngel]

[/font]

NO, good works are the result of being SAVED.. When a person is sealed with the holy Spirit, by GOD, and placed into Christ, then they CAN do good works because they have Christ IN THEM..

I am going to take the phrase I stated and let you reread it. Very slowly....

[IMO and how the Church teaches ... calling oneself saved is presumptious.]

Ok, so Etide, you believe in works after faith (grace)?

DO you believe in works after 'grace' which is faith??

Or are you saying works come before faith? NO, you are not, so you are essentially saying the same thing, but not understanding this.

AND furthermore, tell me the passage in scripture that says we are saved..........!!
Show me where that particular phrase is that says you automatically have salvation.

How is it even the Apostles said to WORK OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING....[?]

I see absolutely no where that we are on auto pilot for salvation.

WE are assured salvation if we repent our sins..and this is not a one time occurence. Because we are always sining.

Are you now sinless? Because you have faith, are you always without sin in which you no longer need to repent of it? :o

 

[WarriorAngel]

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

I love this phrase about purgatory.

 

[Lynn73]

I love this phrase about purgatory.

Don't think so.

 

[S Walch]

I love this phrase about purgatory.

wow, and I thought the RCC couldn't twist sSripture to mean something completely contradictory to the Scriptures any worse than I thought it did.

Thanks for proving me wrong.

 

[WarriorAngel]

wow, and I thought the RCC couldn't twist sSripture to mean something completely contradictory to the Scriptures any worse than I thought it did.

Thanks for proving me wrong.

Ahhhh, I see we are among the experts. Since you mock what it suggests in clear understanding, yet your version is better. I am assured of this by your sarcasm.

Pray do tell, what does it mean?

 

[WarriorAngel]

but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

 

[S Walch]

Ahhhh, I see we are among the experts. Since you mock what it suggests in clear understanding, yet your version is better. I am assured of this by your sarcasm.

Pray do tell, what does it mean?

Would you even believe me if I told you?

 

[ETide]

Yes, the grace in Baptism does infuse us with the Holy Spirit so that we do walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4) - that is to abide in the life we have in Christ, the life in the Holy Spirit.

You’re most likely speaking of water baptism.. although the baptism which seals us and places us into the body of Christ is the baptism by God with His Spirit. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.. and..

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire..

We Catholics are very familiar with St. Paul's teaching regarding life in the Spirit v. life according to the "flesh." The late Pope John Paul II had spoken on this in his Theology of the Body, which a book titled Theology of the Body Explained by Christopher West is a book I'd advise anyone interested in this teaching of Pope John Paul II to check out. He does a good job of presenting the teaching so that it does not fall into the Manichaean herecy in which matter and creation, and particularly the human body is considered evil. Yes, life in the Spirit means to be directed by the Spirit of God, but not to the point of vilifying the goodness of what has been created by God. For God did create the universe and called His creation good.

There is no reforming the old man in scripture. We’re to take up our cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ.. in the newness of His life, not in the old man, for he is corrupt.

Paul says that Christ died for us even while we were enemies.. that’s our old man.. and finally in Romans 7 he speaks of the fact that there is nothing good in him, that is, in his flesh..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me..

Paul also says that we are to set our affections on things above, and not on the things which are on the earth, for WE are DEAD, and our life is hid IN CHRIST with God.

Not quite. There are natural virtues by which people may do good things, though not with a God-ward intent. It is with the Holy Spirit being infused that the Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity are aqcuired - not by any human effort, but by the grace of God. And this grace being infused allows for the God-ward aspect of the works, as well as a strengthening of the will by way of the Holy Spirit in order to do such works.

The works which the scriptures speak to, are works of righteousness that are wrought IN CHRIST, not of ourselves.. so any good things which an unbeliever can do, outside of Christ, are not good in the sense of CHRIST working through them.. any person apart from the life of Christ is dead and lost in trespasses and in sins.

Personally, I don't worry about having a complete assurance of my salvation. I am certain that Christ died on the cross for mine and the salvation of the world, as the Scriptures say. I am also certain that if I remain in the life of the Spirit, the selfless love of Christ in which has infused faith, hope, and charity for me to do the good works in Christ that I am likely to be saved. But I do not presume to know my election among the Saints in heaven, for that seems sinful and arrogant to me. I certainly hope for heaven and to see God face to face.

Emboldened emphasis mine.. This is the serious danger in what you’re saying.. that it’s if you remain.. although the truth of the word of God is that He is faithful and true.. not you..

Christ saves, and He places you into His body as it pleases Himself.. and if you’re IN CHRIST, then He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.. it’s not if you remain, but that HE promises to remain with you, and work in you, until that day..

"Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love." (I Cor. 13:8-13)

These are the virtues of Christ.. faith, hope, and love.. and it is His perfect love which casts out all fear..

 

[ETide]

I am going to take the phrase I stated and let you reread it. Very slowly....

[IMO and how the Church teaches ... calling oneself saved is presumptious.]

It's fine to have opinions WA, although trusting in Christ and in His word concerning your salvation is not presumptious at all.. it's embracing the promises of God.. stop listening to men, and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ..

How is it even the Apostles said to WORK OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING....[?]

It's important to read the rest of this verse.. because it says clearly that it IS GOD WORKING IN YOU.. and that's exactly right.. when a person is saved and has CHRIST IN THEM, then obviously GOD is WORKING IN THEM.. and we should know this and it should result in our falling down on our faces before Him in thanksgiving and adoration..

GOD is IN THOSE who He has sealed with His Spirit.. it doesn't get any more intense than that..

I see absolutely no where that we are on auto pilot for salvation.

WE are assured salvation if we repent our sins..and this is not a one time occurence. Because we are always sining.

Salvation IS the miraculous WORK OF GOD in a person's life.. when they trust IN HIM, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and after they believe.. they are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of their inheritance until the redemption of the purchased posession.

Do you believe this WA..? It's what scripture teaches.

Are you now sinless? Because you have faith, are you always without sin in which you no longer need to repent of it? :o

You're confusing salvation with walking in the Spirit versus walking in the flesh.. The Christian life is a lifetime of correction and of being conformed to the glory and image of CHRIST.. it's a long road, although this has nothing to do with SALVATION.. but rather our sanctification which is also through our glorious Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

To His eternal praise and glory..