Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[Asinner]

I don't believe this is speaking of salvation. It's speaking of rewards for faithful service on earth. Paul isn't worried about his salvation because elsewhere he states he's willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He doesn't sound uncertain to me. He's concerned with being a castaway for heavenly rewards, not losing his salvation. He knew where he was going.

Well then . . . Let's live it up! Eat, drink, and be merry . . . Pray? Fast? Feed the poor? Take care of widows?

WHY?

 

[ETide]

Well then . . . Let's live it up! Eat, drink, and be merry . . . Pray? Fast? Feed the poor? Take care of widows?

WHY?

Faith which works by LOVE.. that's why.

If your constraining motive is anything but love for our Lord Jesus Christ, then it's wrong.

ESPECIALLY if you think that it is meriting your salvation.. that's blatantly wrong.

 

[ETide]

many of these comments show clearly that people believe that they are working for something which they can never earn..

SALVATION is by GRACE through FAITH people.. it's NOT of yourselves..

 

[racer]

What would you like me to say? Obviously, I believe that your traditions are incorrect. Do I believe it matters to God? I DON'T KNOW.

God Bless

Well, if I ask you, which was the case, if you think that Augustine is referring to your Church when he refers to the Catholic Church, I expect a yes or no answer.

Of if I ask you if you believe that matters must be explicitly defined in Scripture in order that they be considered Scriptural, a "yes" or "no" would be nice. No, you can not speak for God, but you can speak for what you believe . . . . can't you?

Just because a doctrine is not "explicitly" defined in Scripture does not mean it is not Scriptural, therefore can only be attributed to Holy Tradition.

Scripture may not explicitly state that baptism is only valid if the person being baptised is immersed, or specifically state, "This is how baptisms are to be performed . . . . " But, we see from example and infer from implicit information such as "Jesus came up from the water . . . " Or as with Philip and the eunuch "they went down to the water . . . they came up from the water," that people were baptised by being dunked under water.

Does it say that we are to be dunked three times? No. So, what does that tell us? Scripture does not address it therefore, that particular practice falls under the realm of "tradition." It was a common "practice" carried on throughout the ages. Now, this to me is apostolic tradition.

This is why I know you do not correctly understand Sola Scriptura. It does not leave out traditional practices. It only asserts that the only verifiable infallible commandments and necessities regarding salvation are available to us in Scripture. In this manner Scripture lacks nothing.

 

[Lynn73]

What ETide said. We cannot earn salvation by doing these things. They're supposed to result from our being saved, they do not save. Not a one of us can ever do anything to merit salvation. Ever. It's a gift and we either accept it by faith or we reject it or we instead get on some kind of works treadmill thinking that what we're doing is getting us salvation brownie points with God. The Bible teaches otherwise.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well then . . . Let's live it up! Eat, drink, and be merry . . . Pray? Fast? Feed the poor? Take care of widows?

WHY?

Indeed.since we are already saved...why have compassion and charity?

 

[ETide]

Indeed.since we are already saved...why have compassion and charity?

As it is said.. the proof is in the puddin

 

[Asinner]

it's NOT of yourselves..

Interesting. Your whole doctrine is based on reason before belief . . .


You continue to show your complete lack of understanding of what the Orthodox Church teaches. Please, before you make anymore assumptions, I will kindly ask that you study first, to show yourself approved.



God Bless

 

[WarriorAngel]

So you all think Christ need not worry about judging...?

Ok, so you have faith, yet did nothing to show others love....and you are not an empty gong?

Ok, so it seems cut and dried to me too.....

You do not have faith, bing, your damned.

You have faith, bing, you are saved....?

Well wait, how can the RC and EO, OO ... all of the Apostolic Churches be so vehemently disparaged?

Are you suggesting we have no faith?

Because we also use that faith to do charity and show God's love working thru us??

How do you suppose the 'Word' and Gospel was spread if the Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles felt like this?

Would this not fly in the face of doing miracles??

Why did Christ do works?

Did He not feel compassion for the lame, the sick the leprosied?

How about the blind? Or the hungry?

Wait..why did He say HE [the judge] would sperate the sheep from the goats?

Why did He say, you did NOT feed Me when you saw Me hungry...?
Why did He say that 'What we do the least, we do to Him?"

These are works.......and you know what He said the outcome was.
Go away from Me you goats, you did NOT feed Me, nor clothe Me..etc


So, are works important?

If you are given faith [like the talents] and you go away and bury it, but do not produce fruit with it you will be punished.

And those who produced a multiplication of the talents will be given more.

HOW does one add more to their 'bundle' of talents...? By doing works to show their faith.
By compassion, love, charity and treating others well.
By spreading the Word thru compassion by deed and word.

You cannot have faith and do nothing. Christ spoke about this in His parables constantly.

AND He Himself did works. His Apostles did works, and James said faith without works is DEAD!

We know what dead means...right?

 

[Asinner]

This is why I know you do not correctly understand Sola Scriptura. It does not leave out traditional practices. It only asserts that the only verifiable infallible commandments and necessities regarding salvation are available to us in Scripture. In this manner Scripture lacks nothing.

I know this is your belief. For you, scripture lacks nothing.

It does lack an interpreter. It lacks praxis. It lacks because it is not the entirety of God's Word. It was written within the Tradition of the Church and is not the comlete testimony of Jesus Christ. The Church only contains this fullness.

You disagree, I know. Thank you nonetheless, for listening to me. May God's Mercy and Grace be with you and yours!

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Interesting. Your whole doctrine is based on reason before belief . . .


You continue to show your complete lack of understanding of what the Orthodox Church teaches. Please, before you make anymore assumptions, I will kindly ask that you study first, to show yourself approved.



God Bless

You're the one who asked WHY Asinner.. and WA affirmed your sentiments.. "why, if we're already saved"..

That says it all..

 

[Asinner]

many of these comments show clearly that people believe that they are working for something which they can never earn..

SALVATION is by GRACE through FAITH people.. it's NOT of yourselves..

Then all of those with faith will be saved. Does this include the Orthodox and Catholics also?

God Bless

 

[ETide]

So you all think Christ need not worry about judging...?

Ok, so you have faith, yet did nothing to show others love....and you are not an empty gong?

Ok, so it seems cut and dried to me too.....

You do not have faith, bing, your damned.

You have faith, bing, you are saved....?

Well wait, how can the RC and EO, OO ... all of the Apostolic Churches be so vehemently disparaged?

Are you suggesting we have no faith?

Because we also use that faith to do charity and show God's love working thru us??

How do you suppose the 'Word' and Gospel was spread if the Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles felt like this?

Would this not fly in the face of doing miracles??

Why did Christ do works?

Did He not feel compassion for the lame, the sick the leprosied?

How about the blind? Or the hungry?

Wait..why did He say HE [the judge] would sperate the sheep from the goats?

Why did He say, you did NOT feed Me when you saw Me hungry...?
Why did He say that 'What we do the least, we do to Him?"

These are works.......and you know what He said the outcome was.
Go away from Me you goats, you did NOT feed Me, nor clothe Me..etc


So, are works important?

If you are given faith [like the talents] and you go away and bury it, but do not produce fruit with it you will be punished.

And those who produced a multiplication of the talents will be given more.

HOW does one add more to their 'bundle' of talents...? By doing works to show their faith.
By compassion, love, charity and treating others well.
By spreading the Word thru compassion by deed and word.

You cannot have faith and do nothing. Christ spoke about this in His parables constantly.

AND He Himself did works. His Apostles did works, and James said faith without works is DEAD!

We know what dead means...right?

Works are the RESULT of salvation, as we are created (IN CHRIST) for good works..

SO, you need to know that you're saved and IN CHRIST first.. THEN you can have good works..

BUT, you have no assurance of that.. So you can't know if you have works..

 

[racer]

Asinner,

I’ve went back to show you how you have jumped around on this topic. So, maybe you’ll understand why I’m not sure what you are getting at. The whole discussion came from you asserting that Scripture did not reveal ”how” baptisms were done.

Post 290

The meaning is not preserved with the teachings.

I will continue to use baptism as my example. We clearly know through the reading of scripture that we must be baptized. This is the teaching. What is the praxis for baptism? The method is not defined in the scriptures.

Show, then after I quoted to you the verses that did indicate the how, immersion, you moved on:

Post 296

Another aspect of baptism that is alluded to in the scriptures is infant baptism:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

I have absolutely no idea what you are asserting. If you think that scripture is alluding to infant baptism—to my way of thinking—you've established that Scripture has defined it to some extent. We can determine the how because we pretty much know that infants aren’t going to be immersed, especially not three times. So, we’ve got to figure out another way.

The scriptures are not specific; yet they are also not vague.

Then what are we disagreeing on?

Then there’s this statement:

Racer,

Something else that is not inferred through the written word is triple immersion. The triple immersion, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is representative of His three days in the tomb.

You go from something else that “is alluded to is infant baptism,” to “something else is not inferred is triple immersion." Are we talking about what is inferred or what isn’t inferred?

Post 425

It is not a tradition; but a Tradition, a teaching from Christ, practiced from the beginnings of Christianity. We see in the scriptures that we are to be buried with Christ in baptism. What is not clear is the method.

Then, we’re back to this! Which is it?

Post 436

Another aspect of baptism that is alluded to in the scriptures is infant baptism:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Cor 1:16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The scriptures are not specific; yet they are also not vague.

Now, you’re repeating yourself and I’m lost.

 

[racer]

I know that scripture is explicit on immersion. Why then would I ask you to supply verses I already know exist? Not sure where you got this from.

Let me refer you back to post 290:

I will continue to use baptism as my example. We clearly know through the reading of scripture that we must be baptized. This is the teaching. What is the praxis for baptism? The method is not defined in the scriptures

It was at this point when I pointed out to you—by quoting Scripture—that baptism by immersion is implicitly defined.

Perhaps an answer . . . You claim that I don't anwer your questions, yet you continue to avoid my questions.

First you must ask a question.

Do you avoid them because you believe I'm "fishing"?

Please show me which questions I have avoided.

Racer, can we not have dialogue without you becoming so defensive and touchy?

I’m sorry, but circular discussions with no identifiable destination which make absolutely no progress in any directionn other that in circles do annoy me. So, no, we can not carry on this type of discussion without me getting agitated. It is clear that you have a point-or many points you wish to make, you have an agenda, but I don’t know what it is. I’m not one who caters to being led blindly down an alley of which I have no idea where it ends.

I am trying to figure out where you get your traditions on baptism from, for they are not the same Traditions that Christ left.

Come on! I’ve made it more than apparent that it comes from Scripture. If you haven’t figured that out by now, it’s not likely that you ever will and my time has been sorely wasted.

 

[ETide]

Then all of those with faith will be saved. Does this include the Orthodox and Catholics also?

God Bless

Salvation is of GOD.. if you're IN CHRIST, having been set into His body by GOD, then you are saved. AND there is assurance in that because GOD knows what He is doing.

I can't judge if you're saved, because I can't see if Christ is in you. I'm not qualified to judge your heart, although You should know if CHRIST is IN YOU, or not..

ALTHOUGH, if you believe that you were born again as an infant at your baptism.. because that's what you have been taught, then you need to realize first of all that this is the teaching of men, and that it's not biblically sound..

IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATION.. men do not do this, GOD DOES.. and you can REST in what HE DOES.

 

[racer]

I have stated quite a bit that's not in Scripture.

Peace

Then I guess we've missed it.

 

[Asinner]

lol, Racer . . .

My point is this: The practice of the Apostles in regards to baptism is much different than the practice in western Christianity; thusly, scripture lacks.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

lol, Racer . . .

My point is this: The practice of the Apostles in regards to baptism is much different than the practice in western Christianity; thusly, scripture lacks.

God Bless

What does your Tradition lack..?

 

[Asinner]

What does your Tradition lack..?

A cup of coffee.