Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[Asinner]

My point was that there are things that are essential such as those things we affirm in the Nicene Creed and there are things that are non-essential such as mode of baptism (sprinkling vs. dunking). I now realize that we have differences in what baptism is.

CC&E - has no idea how the green font turned on....

I like the font.

Who determines what is essential and not?

God Bless

 

[GenemZ]

Wrong post

 

[lionroar0]

Believers who are in churches that clearly, and accurately, teach the Word of God, will produce amongst its "laity" the ability to teach in many ways. It was not just assigned to pastor-teachers, and teachers, to do this. Anyone who attends a good Bible teaching church can attest to this truth.

Not everyone has the same gifts. Some wil be teachers in the formal sence of the word, because they have gifts to be able to do this. Some will teach by just living a christian life others will teach by being involved in a ministry.

Still though all of them must pass on the Faith that was taught by Jesus not something they individually think is the faith that Jesus taught. This is the difference. The Church is the Body of Christ each part has it's own gifts to function with in the Body of Christ. It is when people are filled with pride and deny the gift that they have been given to do in the Church and want another gift that others have; that the Body of Christ becomes distorted.

Peace

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Help me to understand something here..

Does the CC teach that only their successors have the Spirit of God..ie, so is that how they're able to continue teaching their Tradition..?

AND.. do all members of the cc have the Spirit of God..? If so, what makes them less apt than those who are considered successors having the same Spirit..?

First it is not their Tradition. It is what Jesus taught. The way that is worded it sounds like traditions of men. It is not. Everyone that has been baptised in the Trinitarian formula has the Spirit of God. Go back to the Creed. We acknowledge one baptisms for the remissions of sins. One Baptism, One Faith.

Not everyone has the same gifts. If everyone had the same gifts then there would be no Body of Christ. If everyone had the gifts to be teachers then there would be no one to do other ministries.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Using that logic, we're all subject to be infallible at times.



Yes, but people are not. Therefore, anytime someone happens to express the truth as it was delivered by Christ to the Apostles, he is speaking infallibly at that moment.

We are not infallable by our own merit. We are merely the messengers of something that is infallable, because it is Truth.

Yes that is correct here is an example of Tradition being infallable.
Here is Truth expressed about 200yrs. before it became a confession of faith in the Creed.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm


CHAPTER IX,--REFERENCE TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST. Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and did eat and drink. He was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly] died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life.


....and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven,
and sits at the right hand of the Father; ...
...I look for the resurrection of the dead


Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

We could say there's multiplicity of practices about anything.

You are correct, anyone could.
But alas, the Churches of long ago have maintained the same practices since ancient times, and moreover the Tradition is alluded to in scriptures.

SO if we have a multiplicity of practices, it should be both an ancient concept that has been around and can be shown thru the early writings........ if it is not in the Bible.
AND must be able to allude to them in scripture.

But the significance of scripture is not an authority because too many ppl can choose to say that this is NOT what it means, yet when the custom wasnt written about from the Apostles and the earliest writers did not write on it, then it could be just the ancient practice that is unchanged.

Example of no one writing specifically on, would be what words are used during a rite, [altho the Churches themselves maintain the rites] and that is about all I can think of of but the rite itself IS included or alluded to.


Christmas is not scriptural according to some, BUT it is very specific that the Angels said to give Glory on High. etc etc...and they sang and celebrated.

Many things are alluded to, which is how we can indeed back up Tradition....but Tradition itself is a more complete set of information.

When I say that, I am meaning that when a Priest breaks the Bread and then consecrates it, and the chalice..there is an ancient way of doing this...yet not one Apostle actually put that in scripture....yet the fact they DID break bread is in there.

SEE..this is part of Tradition but yet scripture is NOT complete on.

 

[WarriorAngel]

2 John 1
12 Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall be with you, and speak face to face: that your joy may be full. 13 The children of thy sister Elect salute thee.

3 John 1
13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee, and we will speak mouth to mouth. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.

John 21
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Acts Of Apostles 1
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion, by many proofs, for forty days appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

Therefore sola scriptura is unable to give us the fullness of what Jesus did, said, taught and everything else that even happened afterwards whereas John had much more to teach.

Anyone who believes in sola scriptura must rectify these phrases and show us where these things are written.

Peace!

 

[calmcoolandelected]

2 John 1
12 Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall be with you, and speak face to face: that your joy may be full. 13 The children of thy sister Elect salute thee.

3 John 1
13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee, and we will speak mouth to mouth. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.

John 21
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Acts Of Apostles 1
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion, by many proofs, for forty days appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

Therefore sola scriptura is unable to give us the fullness of what Jesus did, said, taught and everything else that even happened afterwards whereas John had much more to teach.

Anyone who believes in sola scriptura must rectify these phrases and show us where these things are written.

Peace!

As long as it jives with Scripture, God's inspired Word, I'm good with it!

2 Timothy 3:16-17

CC&E

 

[GenemZ]

2 John 1
12 Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall be with you, and speak face to face: that your joy may be full. 13 The children of thy sister Elect salute thee.

3 John 1
13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee, and we will speak mouth to mouth. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.

John 21
25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Acts Of Apostles 1
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion, by many proofs, for forty days appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

Therefore sola scriptura is unable to give us the fullness of what Jesus did, said, taught and everything else that even happened afterwards whereas John had much more to teach.

Anyone who believes in sola scriptura must rectify these phrases and show us where these things are written.

Peace!

Ironically...

You are using Sola Scriptura to make your point.

Do we need say more?

2 Peter 2:1 niv
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

​

Will these false teachers be popular?

2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."

​

Peter warned that false teachers would work their way into authority after he was gone. He said it would happen to those he was writing to! And, that it will be preferred by many over the truth.

Now? If we had nothing but someone's word that they are telling us the truth? And, no way to verify? Then God had left us helpless.

How do we remain separated from a lie? Sanctified from what is false?

Jesus declared how it is to be done...

John 17:17 niv
"Sanctify them by the truth; your Word is truth."
​

It does not say, by "tradition."

And, again?

You are attempting to disprove Sola Scriptura, by utilizing Sola Scriptura! How strange!

Always amused, GeneZ

 

[Easystreet]

You can not mix the two. There has to be one source of Truth. Jesus is the Living Word and The 66 books of the Holy Bible are the only Source of Truth from God to man the Ramah and the Logos.

No need for anymore revelation. The Bible is sealed to 66 books

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Ironically...

You are using Sola Scriptura to make your point.

Do we need say more?

2 Peter 2:1 niv
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

​

Will these false teachers be popular?

2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."

​

Peter warned that false teachers would work their way into authority after he was gone. He said it would happen to those he was writing to! And, that it will be preferred by many over the truth.

Now? If we had nothing but someone's word that they are telling us the truth? And, no way to verify? Then God had left us helpless.

How do we remain separated from a lie? Sanctified from what is false?

Jesus declared how it is to be done...

John 17:17 niv
"Sanctify them by the truth; your Word is truth."
​

It does not say, by "tradition."

And, again?

You are attempting to disprove Sola Scriptura, by utilizing Sola Scriptura! How strange!

Always amused, GeneZ

Genez,

I feel like the poor contestants on Jeopardy, frantically clicking away on the buzzer....

"you must spread some reputation around before giving to Genez again".

CC&E

 

[Asinner]

Ironically...

You are using Sola Scriptura to make your point.

Quoting scripture does not make one an adherant of sola scriptura.

God Bless

 

[lionroar0]

You can not mix the two. There has to be one source of Truth. Jesus is the Living Word and The 66 books of the Holy Bible are the only Source of Truth from God to man the Ramah and the Logos.

No need for anymore revelation. The Bible is sealed to 66 books

How do you know it's 66??

Peace+++++++

 

[lionroar0]

Ironically...

You are using Sola Scriptura to make your point.

Do we need say more?

Nope. WA is not using Sola Scriptura. She is using the Authority of Scripture to explicitly point out that not everything was written in the Scriptures.

Peace

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Nope. WA is not using Sola Scriptura. She is using the Authority of Scripture to explicitly point out that not everything was written in the Scriptures.

Peace

What authority does Scripture have?

CC&E

 

[lionroar0]

What authority does Scripture have?

CC&E

It is the Inspired written Word of God.
Peace

 

[calmcoolandelected]

It is the Inspired written Word of God.
Peace

I rest my case.

CC&E

 

[ETide]

First it is not their Tradition. It is what Jesus taught. The way that is worded it sounds like traditions of men. It is not.

How do you know that it's what Jesus taught ?

Everyone that has been baptised in the Trinitarian formula has the Spirit of God. Go back to the Creed. We acknowledge one baptisms for the remissions of sins. One Baptism, One Faith.

How do you know..? Can you see the Spirit of God in them..?

This is where I believe that there is a huge disconnect between the scriptures and what many institutions teach.. because there are many in Christendom today who actually believe that they can add members to the body of Christ by the act of baptism.. even if it's an infant who doesn't understand the gospel etc..

You won't find any scriptural support at all for men adding members to the body of Christ..

God alone adds members to His body as it pleases Himself. We (the body of Christ, the church of God) have been all baptized into one body by one SPIRIT. God seals men and women with the Spirit of promise when they trust in Him, after they hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and after they believe.

Not everyone has the same gifts. If everyone had the same gifts then there would be no Body of Christ. If everyone had the gifts to be teachers then there would be no one to do other ministries.

Peace

Now this I can agree with.. for the scriptures do declare that there are diversities of gifts etc..

 

[lionroar0]

I rest my case.

CC&E

Yes I know It's the Inspired written word of GOd because the Church identified it and compiled it. It's is through the Church that I know it's the Inspired written word of God.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

How do you know that it's what Jesus taught ?

This is my responce to racer's question. I will post part of it here because , it is appropriate.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm

This is an excerpt from one of the letters of Ignatious of Antioch and dicipel of St. John the Apostle. This was written abot 200yrs. before the Creed.


CHAPTER IX,--REFERENCE TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST. Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and did eat and drink. He was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly] died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life.

And this is are excerpts from the Creed.

....and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven,
and sits at the right hand of the Father; ...
...I look for the resurrection of the dead

The faith expressed in both by St. Ignatious and the Creed are the same.

I can see the continuity of the Faith with in Tradition. I can see this objectively.

How do you know..? Can you see the Spirit of God in them..?

This is where I believe that there is a huge disconnect between the scriptures and what many institutions teach.. because there are many in Christendom today who actually believe that they can add members to the body of Christ by the act of baptism.. even if it's an infant who doesn't understand the gospel etc..

You won't find any scriptural support at all for men adding members to the body of Christ..

God alone adds members to His body as it pleases Himself. We (the body of Christ, the church of God) have been all baptized into one body by one SPIRIT. God seals men and women with the Spirit of promise when they trust in Him, after they hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and after they believe.

See above.

Peace