Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

WarriorAngel · Jul 20, 2006

Theophorus said:

Jo, as per your opinion, you are saying the newest and smallest among the Christian beliefs should be correct because they are small? Because they are new? Because finally Christ's truth is out? And that 1500-1600 years worth of Saints, and writings [all in tune with one voice of one Tradition] are all erred and that the new practices who have no history are more accurate and know what Christ meant?

Yea, ok.

The point i was making was that the numbers are largest among the Christians because of the TIME.

And that the Church is in every nation. "Go out and baptize ALL nations..."

And we're not scattered in just a few isolated places.

It is ok to disagree......but I cannot comprehend how ppl build divisions and that is ok.

racer · Jul 20, 2006

Theophorus said:

Oh, well, yeah . . . . that's the thing to do . . . . . encourage her . . . . . Don't do that!

racer · Jul 20, 2006

7cworldwide said:
"My dog's bigger than your dog"
"My dog's older than your dog"

blah... blah... blah...

But, my dog's meaner . . . . . .

racer · Jul 20, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
WHAT??

You cannot have them....

Guys....anyone.... My toys are being taken from me.
Holy Cow Batman, I am in trouble now.

Hey! If you lay 'em down for even a second---they're mine . . . . and you'll never see them again

WarriorAngel · Jul 20, 2006

racer said:
Hey! If you lay 'em down for even a second---they're mine . . . . and you'll never see them again

:o If you wont play nice, I'm hiding them....

Oh, well, yeah . . . . that's the thing to do . . . . . encourage her . . . . . Don't do that!

And I must say that picture certainly is encouraging.

I dont mind...

racer · Jul 20, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
NO one considers man infallible, but the Spirit of God Whom protects the Church is infallible.

But---where we differ is that his protection is not restricted to "The Church" as your Church defines it.

Matt 18:18; Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19; Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20; For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

WarriorAngel said:
DID not Christ leave His Spirit with them?

Technically, no. He sent the Comforter:

Jhn 16:7; Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

He didn't just send that "Comforter" to "the Church" as in the apostles, He sent it to the entire church. Remember Acts?

Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:17; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:38; Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39; For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

WarriorAngel said:
You do trust and believe in scriptures...correct?

WarriorAngel said:
Who wrote the scriptures racer?

Men wrote the scriptures infallibly by the same Spirit Who was with them.

Well, I don't think that can be settled definitively, as in which persons. Because we know that the authorship of many of the NT books is not real clear. But, what we also know is that all Scripture was given by the inspiration of God and is God breathed. Who physically put pen to paper is irrelevant. I doubt even they would seek credit for God's handiwork. Actually, I think that if it were important for us to know exactly who wrote what, there would be absolutely no questions about it.

WarriorAngel said:
Did Christ ever prophecy that the Spirit would leave them at any time?

Um . . . no, why would you assume that I believe the Spirit has abandoned anybody?

WarriorAngel said:
Or did He say for 'all time' or rather...til the end of time?

WA, this has nothing to do with the discussion. Our arguments never mesh because we argue based upon our own logic. You're questioning is based upon some supposition or presumption you have regarding The Church vs. "the church," thus it does not address or relate to my argument.

WarriorAngel said:
That means He is still with the successors and He is not going to leave...

That's what it means to you and those who've taught you. The rest of us believe that the "Comforter" was not left with any particular line of successors, but with the entirety of the Church.

You know one of the most repeated questions from RCs to non-RCs is "if the Spirit is infallibly leading all Christians, why are there so many different denominations?" Well, ask yourself this, "if the Spirit is leading only a particular line of successors infallibly, how could there possibly have been so many evil and corrupt people included in that line? I think if you reason with honest logic, you'll find that the answer to both questions is the same.

WarriorAngel said:
Because the Church must always have the Spirit Promised to them, to teach the infallible writings in an infallible authority.

All of us have the Spirit. We were all promised the Spirit, WA. This line of argumentation always puzzles me . . . . .

WarriorAngel said:
God is three Divine Persons, and of which the Spirit will always be the guide to the Church, and therefore she cannot err.

There is no infallible information available to us for verification that teaches this, WA. He guides us all infallibly. We err, sometimes churches err, because men all men and all groups of men are fallible.

WarriorAngel said:
This is how we trust the Ancient Churches, because the infallibility of the Spirit to keep corruption from ever prevailing against the CHURCH CHRIST built.

That is the premise upon which you place your trust. I trust Scriptures which are God breathed and as such believe what is promised to me therein.

WarriorAngel said:
How do we know what He feels about the mockery of the truth He kept infallibly perfect within the Church he built?

How do you think he feels about His god breathed and inspired Gospel, which he lovingly assured was preserved for us in writing being belittled and downplayed?

WarriorAngel said:
Now aside racer...can you believe that men, ordained by Christ Himself, can forgive sins?

Nope.

racer · Jul 20, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
If you wont play nice, I'm hiding them....

I have the nose of a coonhound . . . . I'll sniff 'em out.

Warrior said:
And I must say that picture certainly is encouraging.

Warrior said:
I dont mind...

It is a little easy on the eyes . . . . . . . :o

ETide · Jul 20, 2006

Theophorus said:
The point, which you ignore, is that the true Church is unified.

Actually, I completely agree that the church of God is unified.. although we obviously disagree as to how it is unified.. that's nothing new of course..

Paul speaks of the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.. how that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and GOD is IN us all.

So, it's unity of the SPIRIT..

AND, you seem to be ignorant of the fact that the church of God is growing up into Christ by the effectual measure which works in every part.. it is growing up into Christ.. ALTHOUGH our local assemblies of believers are not the church of God in its entirety..

It is a blessed thing for brethren in Christ to dwell together in unity.. you simply believe that your church is "the" church of God.. which is basically silly..

Really? I thought most protestants teach the sainthood of believers and that every one is holy, and set apart. You claim the title for yourself, yet judge others for the same thing.

Sorry Theo.. you won't find many Christians accepting the title of Holy Father, or His Holiness, etc.. even Reverend is a name for the LORD, as Holy and Reverend is His name.. (Psalm 111)...

So a oness pentacostal and an independent baptist have one mind, one faith, one baptism and one spirit? They teach different spirits, different faiths, different baptisms and are not of one mind.
I'll have to go with the scriptures on this one.

The body of Christ is growing up into Christ, Theo.. there are many members, many parts.. the eyes can't speak against the ears etc... you seem to believe that it's your church.. again, that's silly.. God is building His church.. not men.. and every single one who comes to God in faith, which He can judge rightly.. He seals them with the holy Spirit of promise which IS the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption.. to the praise of the glory of His grace !

WarriorAngel · Jul 20, 2006

racer said:
But---where we differ is that his protection is not restricted to "The Church" as your Church defines it.

Matt 18:18; Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19; Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20; For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Technically, no. He sent the Comforter:

Jhn 16:7; Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

He didn't just send that "Comforter" to "the Church" as in the apostles, He sent it to the entire church. Remember Acts?

Ok, back up...I see everyone taking the Bible to mean it is for anyone, but wait a minute...He sent Him to the Apostles so THEY could go out and baptize others to receive Him.
It was not without them that He sent the Paraclete.

Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:17; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

NOT to be mean, but He was speaking again, to the Apostles, and all those whom they made sons and daughters. The Bible is basically a text written to show, proove and write about the works of the Apostles, and all those who were following their teachings....and I add, to a 'T' were they to follow. Or else the Apostles admonished the heresies.

Acts 2:38; Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39; For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Again, the promise is for those who strictly adhered to the Apostles teachings....

Well, I don't think that can be settled definitively, as in which persons. Because we know that the authorship of many of the NT books is not real clear. But, what we also know is that all Scripture was given by the inspiration of God and is God breathed. Who physically put pen to paper is irrelevant.

Actually it is very relevent...gnostics put pen to paper too.
So we must be careful, as was the Church, to discern who was Inspired.

I doubt even they would seek credit for God's handiwork. Actually, I think that if it were important for us to know exactly who wrote what, there would be absolutely no questions about it.

See above.... and how we trust scipture is not that we just trust it, BUT that we were taught thru the Church to trust it.

Dont you see that?

Um . . . no, why would you assume that I believe the Spirit has abandoned anybody?

WA, this has nothing to do with the discussion. Our arguments never mesh because we argue based upon our own logic. You're questioning is based upon some supposition or presumption you have regarding The Church vs. "the church," thus it does not address or relate to my argument.

That's what it means to you and those who've taught you. The rest of us believe that the "Comforter" was not left with any particular line of successors, but with the entirety of the Church.

Well, then if He was not left with the ordained, then this means that there is no set truth...correct?

The reason He is here was thru the ordination of the Aposltes, who in turn baptized...so Christ [ordination] breathed on them, of which was their initial baptism, and they in turn baptized.

See, there is and must be a definite line ......

If anyone could do this..then why did He choose certain men??

Why not say this to everyone in a crowd??

You know one of the most repeated questions from RCs to non-RCs is "if the Spirit is infallibly leading all Christians, why are there so many different denominations?" Well, ask yourself this, "if the Spirit is leading only a particular line of successors infallibly, how could there possibly have been so many evil and corrupt people included in that line? I think if you reason with honest logic, you'll find that the answer to both questions is the same.

This is a whole ball of wax..do you really want to get into it??

John warned and Christ warned against others coming and leading ppl away.

All of us have the Spirit. We were all promised the Spirit, WA.

Click to expand...

This line of argumentation always puzzles me . . . . .

There is no infallible information available to us for verification that teaches this, WA. He guides us all infallibly. We err, sometimes churches err, because men all men and all groups of men are fallible.

That is the premise upon which you place your trust. I trust Scriptures which are God breathed and as such believe what is promised to me therein.

How do you think he feels about His god breathed and inspired Gospel, which he lovingly assured was preserved for us in writing being belittled and downplayed?

Nope.

I know those outside of the Church can surely and do surely go to Heaven....but those scriptures were according to those who believed and followed what the Apostles directly taught, NO One else was given this 'authority' to teach and write on behalf of the Spirit as the Apostles were......

And not only does it matter what was written, but a whole lot more happened and Tradition was the only way of which first converts were taught without the NT.

Oral teachings, and then the Epistles which gave a 'record' of sorts of what occured, mind you not all of what occurred, because we are talking a span of about 30 or more years worth to write everything in a few Epistles...including what was taught in specifics.

Here is a few questions to ask yourself......

Do you want to be a part of the first Church which thru Apostolic succussion has the same truths since Christ?

Do you desire the doctrines and The Body and Blood of our Lord, whom we shall be saved thru the Bread and Wine made manifest into His actual Body and Blood.

The hands He ordained have the power to consecrate....to bless the bread and wine and GIVE US CHRIST.

I just do not understand why ppl stand behind the scriptures and what they make of them...but do not crave our Lord so fully in the Eucharist.

To bring Him into ourselves...to let Him be a part of us. Fully accepting Him.

Anyway, you best repeat the baptism part to Etide, he is having issues with accepting we need baptized.

WarriorAngel · Jul 20, 2006

racer said:
[/font]

I have the nose of a coonhound . . . . I'll sniff 'em out.

It is a little easy on the eyes . . . . . . . :o

Dont make me get out the leash....

Nose or no nose...ya cant get away that fast. hehehe

Yea, definitely is easy on the eyes. My kind of Batman...

Hey racer....guess what??

Theophorus · Jul 20, 2006

ETide said:
Actually, I completely agree that the church of God is unified.. although we obviously disagree as to how it is unified.. that's nothing new of course..

Paul speaks of the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.. how that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and GOD is IN us all.

So, it's unity of the SPIRIT..

AND, you seem to be ignorant of the fact that the church of God is growing up into Christ by the effectual measure which works in every part.. it is growing up into Christ.. ALTHOUGH our local assemblies of believers are not the church of God in its entirety..

It is a blessed thing for brethren in Christ to dwell together in unity.. you simply believe that your church is "the" church of God.. which is basically silly..

The body of Christ is growing up into Christ, Theo.. there are many members, many parts.. the eyes can't speak against the ears etc... you seem to believe that it's your church.. again, that's silly.. God is building His church.. not men.. and every single one who comes to God in faith, which He can judge rightly.. He seals them with the holy Spirit of promise which IS the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption.. to the praise of the glory of His grace !

You need to read Ephesians 4 again. Paul is talking about individuals, not different sects. I won't list every verse again but this one is pertinent.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

When you are claiming we are unified in Spirit, assuming you mean the Holy Spirit, your statement defies the imagination. You are in essence claiming that the Spirit of God cannot unify the Church in practice or "rule" or that God chooses not to unify in those ways. Who would believe this in light of the scriptures?

Sorry Theo.. you won't find many Christians accepting the title of Holy Father, or His Holiness, etc.. even Reverend is a name for the LORD, as Holy and Reverend is His name.. (Psalm 111)...

calmcoolandelected · Jul 21, 2006

Theophorus said:
You need to read Ephesians 4 again. Paul is talking about individuals, not different sects. I won't list every verse again but this one is pertinent.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

When you are claiming we are unified in Spirit, assuming you mean the Holy Spirit, your statement defies the imagination. You are in essence claiming that the Spirit of God cannot unify the Church in practice or "rule" or that God chooses not to unify in those ways. Who would believe this in light of the scriptures?

The fact, ETide, that you dismiss the scriptures teachings on unity in all things and consider it foreign and silly, just demonstrates the low standards you have set for yourself, others and for God.

You are right. Reverend is mainly a protestant thing.

That's not very nice, Theo. While you are mocking, just remember Scripture says that those in authority over others will be held to a higher standard. None of us here deny that there are "preachers" in Protestantism that are not teaching Truth, that have abused the office of pastor/evangelist, etc. God will judge them.

And if by UNITY you are referring to peace, yes, the Bible does say we are to be at peace with our bretheren and our neighbors. It also speaks to correction and discipline.

CC&E

Lynn73 · Jul 21, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
Dont make me get out the leash....

Nose or no nose...ya cant get away that fast. hehehe

Yea, definitely is easy on the eyes. My kind of Batman...

Hey racer....guess what??

Where are you getting those smileys?

WarriorAngel · Jul 21, 2006

O, those smiley's?
I grab em when I see em...!

Um, I am a mod in another forum.... And well, I have been invited into like 15 forums...so I get em all over the place.

However; I believe they originated from Smiley Central??

Not certain about it though.

xapis · Jul 21, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
I believe they originated from Smiley Central??

Not certain about it though.

You mean you don't know the Tradition of your smilies?
...for shame, for shame!

sorry... couldn't resist.

S Walch · Jul 21, 2006

Lynn73 said:
Where are you getting those smileys?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/Princess526/smilies2/Smiles3/

From there it seems - but you need a password

WarriorAngel · Jul 21, 2006

I used to have smiley central....
Been quite a while since then, though.

S Walch said:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...lies2/Smiles3/

From there it seems - but you need a password

Hey buddy, that's my photobucket...

If you need a place to upload pics for free, use photobucket.

ETide · Jul 21, 2006

Theophorus said:
You need to read Ephesians 4 again. Paul is talking about individuals, not different sects. I won't list every verse again but this one is pertinent.

Paul is speaking about UNITY OF THE SPIRIT, in the bond of peace.. and how that there is ONE-NESS in His church, because there is ONE Lord, ONE faith, and as 1 Cor 12 plainly states.. that it is by ONE Spirit that we are all baptized into ONE BODY..

So there is unity amongst the body of Christ..although for you that must mean that it's the Orthodox church..

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Yes, there are real issues in the church of God.. in this case perhaps there were issues between Euodias, and Syntyche, as Paul admonishes them to be of one mind.. and we have the great verses in chapter 2 of Philippians which speak of the mind of Christ.. this should be the Christian attitude toward each other.. remember that the Corinthian church were taking members to court against one another.. not a good thing.. it would be better to suffer loss in these cases..

The church of God is not perfect in its love and care for one another.. all of us are growing up together into that PERFECT man, even our Lord Jesus Christ..

When you are claiming we are unified in Spirit, assuming you mean the Holy Spirit, your statement defies the imagination. You are in essence claiming that the Spirit of God cannot unify the Church in practice or "rule" or that God chooses not to unify in those ways. Who would believe this in light of the scriptures?

IT defies your imagination perhaps.. because you have been taught that the Orthodox church is the church of God.. although the body of Christ is being conformed to the glory and image of Christ through the SPIRIT of God, not through the orthodox church.

The fact, ETide, that you dismiss the scriptures teachings on unity in all things and consider it foreign and silly, just demonstrates the low standards you have set for yourself, others and for God.

If you believe that the Orthodox church is the church of God, then you've set that as your standard for God's church.. it's obvious to me who is setting standards here Theo..

You are right. Reverend is mainly a protestant thing.

Well, perhaps there are many who have had the poor examples of seeing men refered to as 'the' holy father, or 'his high holiness', etc.. in either case, orthodox or protestant.. it's not correct.. the LORD himself said that we're brethren.. It's a blessing beyond our widest imaginations to simply be called brethren, children of God.. sons and daughters.. but his high holiness is clearly a bit much..:o

Asinner · Jul 21, 2006

ETide said:
Paul is speaking about UNITY OF THE SPIRIT, in the bond of peace.. and how that there is ONE-NESS in His church, because there is ONE Lord, ONE faith, and as 1 Cor 12 plainly states.. that it is by ONE Spirit that we are all baptized into ONE BODY..

So there is unity amongst the body of Christ..although for you that must mean that it's the Orthodox church..

Unity in protestantism, does not exist. Although one may claim there is the Spirit of Unity, it is NOT manifest in faith nor practice. There is much division and discord.

Yes, there are real issues in the church of God.. in this case perhaps there were issues between Euodias, and Syntyche, as Paul admonishes them to be of one mind.. and we have the great verses in chapter 2 of Philippians which speak of the mind of Christ.. this should be the Christian attitude toward each other.. remember that the Corinthian church were taking members to court against one another.. not a good thing.. it would be better to suffer loss in these cases..

The church of God is not perfect in its love and care for one another.. all of us are growing up together into that PERFECT man, even our Lord Jesus Christ..

How can Christ's Church, that which was founded UPON Him, not be perfect? This is what lead me away from protestantism. The Church of the New Testament painted a much different picture than what I beheld for 13 years as a protestant. I heard the same excuses from others as I hear from you.

IT defies your imagination perhaps.. because you have been taught that the Orthodox church is the church of God.. although the body of Christ is being conformed to the glory and image of Christ through the SPIRIT of God, not through the orthodox church.

Theo has not been TAUGHT that the Orthodox Church is the Church of God, he has witnessed it for himself as every Orthodox believer has. I have seen perfection, not in myself (quite the opposite), but in that which I have been born into - CHRIST. His Church is perfect and filled with Grace and it is manifested - Unity, Love, Virtue, Holiness, Apostolic, Universal. I say this, not to boast, but to testify to it's existence! The Kingdom of God is at hand! Praise God!

If you believe that the Orthodox church is the church of God, then you've set that as your standard for God's church.. it's obvious to me who is setting standards here Theo..

Christ has set HIS standards and It is Glorious, indeed!

Well, perhaps there are many who have had the poor examples of seeing men refered to as 'the' holy father, or 'his high holiness', etc.. in either case, orthodox or protestant.. it's not correct.. the LORD himself said that we're brethren.. It's a blessing beyond our widest imaginations to simply be called brethren, children of God.. sons and daughters.. but his high holiness is clearly a bit much..:o

I take it you have never been in contact with an Elder or Bishop of the Orthodox Church. You would not be making these comments if you had. Please do not judge, that which you do not know.

God Bless

WarriorAngel · Jul 21, 2006

Unity in protestantism, does not exist. Although one may claim there is the Spirit of Unity, it is NOT manifest in faith nor practice. There is much division and discord.

One example is soul sleep.

Which is an error, but still, it is another 'discord' among them.

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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