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Theophorus said:No basis.
You Trust in yourself because you know that the incarnation you and others claim is bogus. The theology is nice but it fails to manifest itself in most. So then you are satisified to seperate salvation from virtue, even though the bible does not. How convenient.
And by so doing you, by implication, deny the incarnation of the Holy Ghost within us and reduce it to a concept or a notion, just as every other religion does.
ETide said:Thanks for your 'flaming' opinion Theo.. although I trust in my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins through His precious shed blood. I am saved by the power of God through the Gospel of God concerning His Son, as it alone is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.
If that is trusting in myself in your opinion, then so be it.
Trento said:I have seen many examples of "interpretations" of Scripture being coloured by predetermined concepts. Let me give an example.
Scripture says we must believe and be Baptised to be saved (Mk16:16)
ETide said:Thanks for your 'flaming' opinion Theo.. although I trust in my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins through His precious shed blood. I am saved by the power of God through the Gospel of God concerning His Son, as it alone is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.
If that is trusting in myself in your opinion, then so be it.
racer said:You forget, non-RCs/EOs don't believe any person is infallible. I only quote Augustine to show how blatantly false the assertions made by RCs that all of the ECFs were RC and taught and believed as your Church does today. Essentially, I only have to quote one father to tear down that argument and to show "Unanimous Consent" to be non-existant.
I don't appeal to him to affirm my beliefs, but to disprove your unfounded claims.
God Bless!
Lisa
Theophorus said:"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).
Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26)....
...In the aforementioned words of Christ, the truth of the Church is placed into the tightest union with the mystery of the All-holy Trinity....
...The idea of the Church as a new, perfect community as distinct from a community of the state organization is profoundly and beautifully expressed in the kontakion for the feast of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, when the Church recalls and celebrates its beginning. "When the Most High came down and confused the tongues, He divided the nations, but when He distributed the tongues of fire, He called all into unity. Therefore, with one accord we glorify the All-holy Spirit." Here the creation of the Church is placed into opposition to the Tower of Babel and the "confusing of tongues," at which time God, the Most High, came down, confused the tongues and divided the nations....
... There are an increasing number of people among us who dream of some sort of churchless Christianity. These people have a seemingly constant anarchical system of thought. They are either incapable, or more often, are simply too lazy to think through to the end of their thoughts.
Without even speaking of the most evident contradictions of the churchless quasi-Christianity, it is always possible to see that it is completely void of the genuine Grace of Christian life, and the inspiration and quickening of the Spirit.
When people take the Gospel book, forgetting that the Church gave it to them, then it becomes like the Koran, said to have been dropped by Allah from the sky. When they somehow contrive to overlook the teaching about the Church in it, then all that remains of Christianity is the teaching, so powerless to re-create life and man, as is every philosophical system.
Our forebears, Adam and Eve, sought to become "like gods" without God, relying on the magical power of the beautiful "apple." This is how many of our contemporaries dream of being saved: with the Gospel, but without the Church and without the God-man. They hope on the book of the Gospel exactly as Adam and Eve hope on the paradise apple.
The book, however, does not have the power to give them a new life. People who deny the Church constantly speak about "evangelical principles," about evangelical teaching; but Christianity as life is completely alien to them.
In the churchless form, Christianity is only a sound, now and then sentimental, but always a caricature and lifeless. It is precisely these people who, while denying the Church, have made Christianity, in the words of V. S. Soloviev, "deathly boring." As David Strauss observed, "When the edifice of the Church is destroyed and, on the bare, poorly leveled place, there is erected only the edifying sermon, the result is sad and terrible."...
...Protestant false teaching is disgraced by this same lifelessness. What have the Protestants attained, having obscured the concept of the Church with their philosophizing? They have attained only disunity, and most hopeless disunity. Protestantism is constantly breaking down into more sects. There is no Protestant Church life, but some sort of "scarcely living" life of separate sects and communities.
Protestantism has killed the general Church life, about which the Lord Jesus Christ prayed in that first sacred prayer....
....for many of our contemporaries, the genuine Orthodox Christian ideal of the Church appeared to be too lofty. People have now become so stagnated and stiffened in their self-love, that the Orthodox concept of the Church seems to them to be some sort of coercion of personality, an incomprehensible and unnecessary despotism. The Orthodox concept of the Church demands from everyone much self-denial, humility, and love. Thus, in the hearts of our contemporaries, which are impoverished of love and for whom the dearest thing is self-love, this ideal is a burden too uncomfortable to carry.."
St. Ilarion (Troitsky), Holy New Martyr of Russia
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthilarion_church.aspx
Theophorus said:"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).
Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ.... *some rather use less drivel*
WarriorAngel said:Indeed no man is infallible, but the Spirit of God uses man as 'His infallible' tool at such necessary times...as when the Pope who speaks for the infallible Church that is led by the Spirit which is the only reason she is infallible, but the Spirit leads...as He did also in the Apostles.
WarriorAngel said:The whole bit of faith comes down to what the Apostles taught and how the Spirit has been able over all obstacles, to maintain the truth in all times and to keep errors out at all times.
WarriorAngel said:In my perspective I have faith in God, His Son Christ, Who Promised the Spirit to keep the Church built upon Peter for mankind...then I also have faith His Church cannot fail.
WarriorAngel said:In my life that is utter trust and complete faith.
WarriorAngel said:This is why I am Catholic, because I have utter faith in the Spirit. WHO is stronger than man, stronger than evil, and even stronger than ego.
WarriorAngel said:And in Christ's uncompromising Word....
Matthew 16
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
ETide said:Theo,
To be brief.. this simply reminds me of how the largest religious institutions on the planet, mainly the RCC and the OC, have no understanding of what the church of God actually is..
It should amaze me.. although I've seen it now through 60 plus pages on this thread, and people still think that their church is the church of God..
As for the Lord's prayer concerning unity or one-ness in Him, that is absolutely a reality in those who have been sealed by GOD with His Spirit.. CHRIST IN US, our hope of glory.. and it still amazes me that people like the pope would be refered to as the Holy Father, whom our Lord prayed to..
or that the OC head honcho would be refered to as his most holiness, or something ridiculous like that..
But such are those who claim to be the church of God..
WarriorAngel said:
Ever wonder why your sect is so small? Because its rather new. The numbers are another way to tell how OLD an institution is.Ancient in fact.
7cworldwide said:"My dog's bigger than your dog"
"My dog's older than your dog"
blah... blah... blah...
ETide said:That's about the gist of it.. 60 plus pages of people saying that their church is the church of God..
racer said:I know all of that. I don’t remember who, but one of them quoted a Protestant Scholar as proof substantiating his argument when I told him he had not proven his case. I reminded him that non-RCs do not consider anyone infallible, therefore to post a Protestant Scholar as definitive proof was pointless. So, then, JCrawf smarted off something about it being odd because I was citing ECFs to validate my arguments. So, I was pointing out that I did not quote them to prove my case, but to reveal the fallacies of theirs.
Faith in what the apostles taught? What about what Jesus taught? Nobody doubts the ability of the Spirit. But, we don’t have to wonder or base our understandings of what Jesus actually taught, because we have it in print.
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Believing in the concept of Sola Scriptura does not mean that anybody doubts that the church will prevail until the end. Scripture tells us it is so.
In my life, my utter faith and trust is in God.
That’s is why I’m Christian—period. (I’m not implying that RCs are not Christian. It’s just that such labels are unimportant to God)
St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book I
Meaning of Giving the Keys to the Church
Chapter 18 - The keys given to the ChurchHe has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe, and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse, as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.
ETide said:Theo,
To be brief.. this simply reminds me of how the largest religious institutions on the planet, mainly the RCC and the OC, have no understanding of what the church of God actually is..
It should amaze me.. although I've seen it now through 60 plus pages on this thread, and people still think that their church is the church of God..
As for the Lord's prayer concerning unity or one-ness in Him, that is absolutely a reality in those who have been sealed by GOD with His Spirit.. CHRIST IN US, our hope of glory.. and it still amazes me that people like the pope would be refered to as the Holy Father, whom our Lord prayed to.. or that the OC head honcho would be refered to as his most holiness, or something ridiculous like that..
But such are those who claim to be the church of God..
ETide said:The next verse speaks of those who do not believe (but there's no mention of baptism, because baptism is for believers, not unbelievers), they will be damned.
Our Lord says that if you believe NOT that I am He (the Messiah), then you will die in your sins.. without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins..
Water Baptism is for those who believe..
The Spirit baptism, which only God can impart, is what places us into the body of Christ.. for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.. that's His body.. and He sets each member in place as it pleases Himself.
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S Walch said:Wow, that's an amazing high horse you're on. I hope the great plummeting drop won't hurt you too much.
You do remember that Christ said to Paul when he was persecuting the Church, "Why do you persecute Me?" And that Paul later says that Christ loves the Church and nourishes as His own flesh?
Robskiwarrior said:lol yupfunny isnt it Yahuweh never established a "Church"
Never mind maybe one day people will realise these things before its too late.
I think we can. Are you implying that the Hypostatic Union is not biblical? That it is solely based on extra-biblical Holy Tradition?
Good grief!Everything in Scripture was taught before it was written or taught!
Not in those exact words. But, we have this from Scripture:
Jhn 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2; The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:14; And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Well, then if you want to make that assertion, you can lump the Eucharist right up there with it. Because, if you can't read what the Bible says in relationship to Jesus humanness and divinity and conclude what is stated above, then you absolutely could not read it and infer for a second that Jesus was telling us to eat His flesh and drink His blood!
I just do not understand Christians that fight so fiercely to discredit the word of God, in order to elevate their Church to a level of which God never intended for it to be.
I just can't understand how such a simple ideology as Sola Scriptura can be so "misunderstood" by seeingly, highly intelligent people
Robskiwarrior lol yupfunny isnt it Yahuweh never established a "Church"
Never mind maybe one day people will realise these things before its too late.
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