Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
This is why it's important to build doctrine based upon the whole counsel of scripture, rather than on select verses.. or by things alluded to in scripture.

If we look at the many instances concerning water baptism in the scriptures.. we find that it is for those who believe already, and who are conscious of the decision which they are making.. we have zero instances of water baptism taking place with an infant, or with a person who is not understanding the basis of the baptism.. they didn't need to understand it fully, although its connection with the Lord Jesus Christ was certainly understood.

So while it could certainly be alluded to in the scriptures, it would be a daring stretch to build a doctrine upon these things.

Just my .02

I see that you do want to discuss this . . .

The only one building a doctrine is you. The baptizing of infants has always been the correct teaching of Christendom since the Apostles! The doctrine you espouse makes God's Grace dependent on man's intelligence. His Grace is not dependent on any act of ours; for it is a Gift.

God Bless

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

Etide said:
This is why it's important to build doctrine based upon the whole counsel of scripture, rather than on select verses.. or by things alluded to in scripture.

By jove, I think he's got it.

Although slightly turn that knob a little bit more to the 'right' and you will see that Tradition was written about in scripture, but not ALL of it [only being alluded to], and you will quickly discover how the entire Bible together does in fact make sense in wholes and not parts.

I give you points.

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
I see that you do want to discuss this . . .

The only one building a doctrine is you. The baptizing of infants has always been the correct teaching of Christendom since the Apostles! The doctrine you espouse makes God's Grace dependent on man's intelligence. His Grace is not dependent on any act of ours; for it is a Gift.

God Bless

WE do baptize in our assembly as we see it as a command of our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not baptize infants though as we believe that the scriptures do afford us the measure that it is to be done with an understanding of what is taking place.

With that said, I don't care to get dogmatic about these things as many people obviously feel very differently about it. I believe that it's an extremely noble thing to present our children (even infants) before the Lord Jesus Christ.. although even catholics would not allow an infant to partake of the Lord's supper.. right..? There should be a little understanding of the commitment involved on behalf of the one partaking of these things..

So I don't actually care to debate these things.. I do often enjoy sharing thoughts concerning these things.. simply to try as to the best of my God given ability to speak the truth in love.. that's not always a pleasant thing.. but it's an important thing imo..

God bless you richly in Christ Jesus our Lord !

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
WE do baptize in our assembly as we see it as a command of our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not baptize infants though as we believe that the scriptures do afford us the measure that it is to be done with an understanding of what is taking place.

With that said, I don't care to get dogmatic about these things as many people obviously feel very differently about it. I believe that it's an extremely noble thing to present our children (even infants) before the Lord Jesus Christ.. although even catholics would not allow an infant to partake of the Lord's supper.. right..? There should be a little understanding of the commitment involved on behalf of the one partaking of these things..

So I don't actually care to debate these things.. I do often enjoy sharing thoughts concerning these things.. simply to try as to the best of my God given ability to speak the truth in love.. that's not always a pleasant thing.. but it's an important thing imo..

God bless you richly in Christ Jesus our Lord !

Etide

I appreciate your thoughts.

In the Orthodox Church, we commune infants . . . just in case you didn't know.

God Bless

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

One thing which I do feel very strongly about is the doctrine within many portions of Christendom which teaches that the miracle of being born again, by God, is established at a water baptism..

Much of Christendom believes and teaches that members are added to the body of Christ at water baptism.. this is a serious issue in my estimation because people are being led to believe that they're in Christ when that may not truly be the case.

I believe the scriptures offer more than an abundant view of the fact that God Himself is building His church, adding members to it as it pleases Himself.. even setting each member into place in a miraculous way..

Although this I do not wish to debate either.. I'll share a few things (as I have) but do not wish to be contentious with others on these things..

I do believe that it is a very serious issue for the reasons mentioned.. and I believe that it is partly the reason for so many believing that they can lose the salvation which Christ offers..

well, you get the message.. enough said..

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Etide

I appreciate your thoughts.

In the Orthodox Church, we commune infants . . . just in case you didn't know.

God Bless

Really ! That is interesting. How do you do this.. ?

Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts (and all) as well.. believe it or not..

racer · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
DO you two agree.....I am just wondering.

Do I agree that the Church has teachign authority? Yes. How many times do I have to say it?

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
By jove, I think he's got it.

Hey, how do you make these big faces..?

I like em !

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
Really ! That is interesting. How do you do this.. ?

Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts (and all) as well.. believe it or not..

The infant is carried to the chalice where the Gifts are administered with a spoon directly into the child's mouth.

God Bless

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
The infant is carried to the chalice where the Gifts are administered with a spoon directly into the child's mouth.

God Bless

I never heard this.. thanks for sharing that.

We only allow the emblems of bread and wine to those who have made a profession of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, and who have committed themselves to the ordinance of baptism as it is commanded of the Lord..

So in some cases.. if unknown folks come in.. we simply take a person's word for it.. and if they do not profess Christ, then we ask them to refrain from taking the emblems.

Lynn73 · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
DO you two agree.....I am just wondering.

I agree that the church has teaching authority but by the term church I don't mean what you mean. When using the term church I mean all Christians. Those leaders in my church have authority to teach the Scriptures and study them together with us BUT they are subject to those same Scriptures like the rest of us. They aren't considered infallible and if they would go of on some tangent and contradict Scripture, they would be confronted, not followed into their error. Example, my husband was telling me of a church he went to where the pastor denied the virgin birth. They got rid of the pastor.

racer · Jul 18, 2006

As Lynn said,

To acknowledge the teaching authority of the church, does not mean we are restricting that teaching authority to the RCC.

I need to read posts more closely . . . always somebody trying to twist and distort what other people say . . . . .

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

Ok, racer...which Church has teaching authority...and which Church father do you keep quoting?

Since you keep quoting Catholic fathers, does this mean you believe the sole Church which was Catholic, has the teaching authority?

What about St Ignatius?

Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again... Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Epistle to the Smyreans)

racer · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
Here are two aspects you are ignoring as I stated above..........

WarriorAngel said:
Catholics have never denied the importance of scripture, but neither does Augustine deny the importance of Tradition either.

But you refuse to acknowledge that Augustine holds Scripture to the highest regard. He does not consider tradition to be of equal authority to Scripture.

WarriorAngel said:
And another aspect is the fact Augustine was arguing against 'a certain person, heresy, object'.....and the crux of it is we understand the situation ascertained in this particular instance why he was only relying on his defense of scripture YET this still will NOT void what he says about Tradition.

It depends alot on the context of WHY he was writing.

Regardless of the context, what he believed about Scripture can not be negated. In every context that he mentions Scripture, he shows that he considered Scripture more than sufficient for salvation and that he considered it to be above all authority concerning our Christian faith.

For emphasis some highlights of his thoughts:

for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion

I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred

The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures

For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality

Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such pure13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought

The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away

And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God,

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book.

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

This commonly happens as regards the holy books of the Old Testament, if only the man who meets with difficulties applies to a pious teacher, and not to a profane critic, and if he begins his inquiries from a desire to find truth, and not in rash opposition. And should the inquirer meet with some, whether bishops or presbyters, or any officials or millers of the Catholic Church, who either avoid in all cases opening up mysteries, or, content with simple faith, have no desire for more recondite knowledge, he must not despair of finding the knowledge of the truth in a case where neither are all able to teach to whom the inquiry is addressed, nor are all inquirers worthy of learning the truth. Diligence and piety are both necessary: on the one hand, we must have knowledge to find truth, and, on the other hand, we must deserve to get the knowledge.

CHAP. I.--HOW THE PRETENSIONS OF THE MANICHAEANS ARE TO BE REFUTED. TWO MANICHAEAN FALSEHOODS.

Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]

racer · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:

Ok, racer...which Church has teaching authority...and which Church father do you keep quoting

Click to expand...

I keep quoting Augustine. You didn’t know that?

WarriorAngel said:

Since you keep quoting Catholic fathers, does this mean you believe the sole Church which was Catholic, has the teaching authority?

Click to expand...

Yet another erroneous claim propagated by your church. St. Augustine was not Roman Catholic—nor “C”atholic as you and your church assert. I do not quote Augustine to convince people that he taught what I or the Protestant faith profess. What I do show is that there was no unanimous consent among Church fathers as the RCC claims; that many of the earliest fathers taught things which conflict clearly, blatantly, and explicitly with what the RCC teaches today. My arguments are not based upon some claim that certain early Christian figureheads taught exactly what my faith teaches. I have far less to prove than do you.

WarriorAngel said:
What about St Ignatius?

What about him? Nowhere did I assert or imply that all church fathers were in agreement on tradition or scripture?

WarriorAngel said:
Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD
"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again... Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Epistle to the Smyreans)

How does this relate to the discussion? Are you asserting that he is speaking of the RCC, the Catholic church to which you belong? You know better, and so do we.

racer · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:

This commonly happens as regards the holy books of the Old Testament, if only the man who meets with difficulties applies to a pious teacher, and not to a profane critic, and

Click to expand...

WarriorAngel said:
if he begins his inquiries from a desire to find truth, and not in rash opposition. And should the inquirer meet with some, whether bishops or presbyters, or any officials or millers of the Catholic Church, who either avoid in all cases opening up mysteries, or, content with simple faith, have no desire for more recondite knowledge, he must not despair of finding the knowledge of the truth in a case where neither are all able to teach to whom the inquiry is addressed, nor are all inquirers worthy of learning the truth. Diligence and piety are both necessary: on the one hand, we must have knowledge to find truth, and, on the other hand, we must deserve to get the knowledge.

CHAP. I.--HOW THE PRETENSIONS OF THE MANICHAEANS ARE TO BE REFUTED. TWO MANICHAEAN FALSEHOODS.

Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]

And? What does this prove in your mind?

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Another aspect of baptism that is alluded to in the scriptures is infant baptism:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Cor 1:16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The scriptures are not specific; yet they are also not vague.

God Bless

Being less explicit at times does not rule out the sufficiency of Scripture.

racer · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:

This commonly happens as regards the holy books of the Old Testament, if only the man who meets with difficulties applies to a pious teacher, and not to a profane critic, and

Click to expand...

WarriorAngel said:
if he begins his inquiries from a desire to find truth, and not in rash opposition. And should the inquirer meet with some, whether bishops or presbyters, or any officials or millers of the Catholic Church, who either avoid in all cases opening up mysteries, or, content with simple faith, have no desire for more recondite knowledge, he must not despair of finding the knowledge of the truth in a case where neither are all able to teach to whom the inquiry is addressed, nor are all inquirers worthy of learning the truth. Diligence and piety are both necessary: on the one hand, we must have knowledge to find truth, and, on the other hand, we must deserve to get the knowledge.

CHAP. I.--HOW THE PRETENSIONS OF THE MANICHAEANS ARE TO BE REFUTED. TWO MANICHAEAN FALSEHOODS.

Augustine of Hippo [SAINT] [DOCTOR]

On Christian Doctrine, Book I

Chapter 40.What Manner of Reader Scripture Demands.

44. And, therefore, if a man fully understands that the end of the commandment is charity, out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned,1757 and is bent upon making all his understanding of Scripture to bear upon these three graces, he may come to the interpretation of these books with an easy mind. For while the apostle says love, he adds out of a pure heart, to provide against anything being loved but that which is worthy of love. And he joins with this a good conscience, in reference to hope; for, if a man has the burden of a bad conscience, he despairs of ever reaching that which he believes in and loves. And in the third place he says: and of faith unfeigned. For if our faith is free from all hypocrisy, then we both abstain from loving what is unworthy of our love, and by living uprightly we are able to indulge the hope that our hope shall not be in vain.

Book II

Chapter 9.How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

Chapter 33.-Christ is the Saviour and Redeemer Even of Infants.

Let us therefore give in and yield our assent to the authority of Holy Scripture, which knows not how either to be deceived or to deceive; and as we do not believe that men as yet unborn have done any good or evil for raising a difference in their moral deserts, so let us by no means doubt that all men are under sin, which came into the world by one man and has passed through unto all men; and from which nothing frees us but the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [XXIII.] His remedial advent is needed by those that are sick, not by the whole: for He came not to call the righteous, but sinners; and into His kingdom shall enter no one that is not born again of water and the Spirit; nor shall any one attain salvation and eternal life except in His kingdom,-since the man who believes not in the Son, and eats not His flesh, shall not have life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. Now from this sin, from this sickness, from this wrath of God (of which by nature they are children who have original sin, even if they have none of their own on account of their youth), none delivers them, except the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world;103 except the Physician, who came not for the sake of the sound, but of the sick; except the Saviour, concerning whom it was said to the human race: "Unto you there is born this day a Saviour;"104 except the Redeemer, by whose blood our debt is blotted out. For who would dare to say that Christ is not the Saviour and Redeemer of infants? But from what does He save them, if there is no malady of original sin within them? From what does He redeem them, if through their origin from the first man they are not sold under sin? Let there be then no eternal salvation promised to infants out of our own opinion, without Christ's baptism; for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion.

And I agree with Augustine, and now I suppose you will say then, this is not scripture??

BTW....... he wasnt referring to sola scriptura....but the Catholic Apostolic teachings of scripture.

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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