Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[calmcoolandelected]

Because the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against the Church built upon Peter.

If that verse is in error, and all things from the Church is in error.then did Christ tell the truth?

What about the Paraclete He sent them?
What about the fact He said He was with 'them' til the end of time?

If we trust, and have faith in these simple verses, then we can trust that no matter of discord or corruption can ever change or touch His Church.

He said it, I believe it.

I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree because I don't believe we interpret those things in the same way.

My question to you though, still remains. How can you know for sure what is Truth?

CC&E

 

[ETide]

Excellent post! "You must spread some reputation around before giving it to 7cworldwide again."

CC&E

Yes, I'll AMEN that as well. Excellent post !

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The very same can be asked about why Peter thinks HE can understand Paul, and yet no one else can....and decide for themselves.

Because the authority IS the Apostles...and the Paraclete is with them and the Church built upon Peter...for all time.

That is until the END of time.

Christ said it, I believe it.

Actually, Christ never once mentioned the (Latin Roman Rite) Catholic(Church/denomination/institution/community) or the Pope or the Magisterium thereof.


How I see this is that this teaching that this is what Christ was referring to in His Holy written Word is a teaching of the very same teacher who claims to be exempt from the "no private interpretation" rule he imposes on all others, the teaching of the teacher that self-claims he can teach that for himself and is infallible and unaccountable when he (and only he) says so, because he says so, and he says he can. I respect that but do not embrace it as a good epistemological principle. That's my only point. Certainly, one can accept it as an article of faith - as Mormons and JW's and Christian Scientists and some others do. I don't. I simply don't have the ego to exempt myself or declare myself to be infallible and unaccountable, and I think that such an epistemology is unsound.


Pax.


- Josiah


.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Bible says that the parakletos is with all believers. See my post #227.

CC&E

Ahhh, was He with the Marcions, and the Nestorians?
Was He with the Montanists, or Arains, Donatists....etc?

They certainly believed too. So it is not as easy as saying He is with all believers.....but BELIEVERS whom trust what they are taught by the Church built on Peter whereas the gates of hell Shall NOT PREVAIL..

 

[ETide]

Well hey, if you folks do not believe that the SPIRIT of God is within you, then so be it..

 

[WarriorAngel]

So why did you mention, and apply 2 Peter 1:20, in a completely foreign context..? Is it because that is what you have been taught to say..?

All I did was share what the context of 2 Peter 1:20 was.. and yet you would not comment on that.. you simply revert to your private interpretation mantra.. so be it.. that's simple..

If you question why I trust the Church...I stated a few times....so if the Church says it, I believe it, because the Spirit remained as promised with the CHURCH built on Peter.

Does anyone get the concept.'The gates of hell shall NOT prevail.' against it??

 

[WarriorAngel]

The same Church has a long history, not always in a favorable light, BUT corrupt sinners [mankind] could not change her, she remained the same with the same doctrines and understandings of scripture since the days the Apostles taught their disciples who were ordained, and wrote that which taught them, and were martyred..

The same unbroken line that can trace its doctrines to not only scripture and its understanding.....but to the earliest writers as well.

NOW what is the history of your Church??

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Ahhh, was He with the Marcions, and the Nestorians?
Was He with the Montanists, or Arains, Donatists....etc?

They certainly believed too. So it is not as easy as saying He is with all believers.....but BELIEVERS whom trust what they are taught by the Church built on Peter whereas the gates of hell Shall NOT PREVAIL..

I am woefully ignorant of Church History here and it is something I am working to rectify. However, Scripture clearly states that God sends His Holy Spirit to dwell within us and testify to us of Him. So I will ask you once again, How do you know what is Truth?

CC&E

 

[racer]

Racer,

The difference is that the interpretation of scripture was known prior to it being written by those who wrote it and taught it to their disciples. Then those disciples who received the teachings taught their disciples, ect. ,

Okay. Not sure what your point is though.

Scripture is an abyss and can either lead one to the Church or to their own destruction.

Well, my destination is not the church or destruction, but God and His Kingdom.

 

[ETide]

If you question why I trust the Church...I stated a few times....so if the Church says it, I believe it, because the Spirit remained as promised with the CHURCH built on Peter.

I questioned why you mis-applied 2 Peter 1:20 in the way that you did. And so you're basically saying yes.. if they say it, then you believe it.. so at least now I understand why you used it in that context.. because they said so..

Does anyone get the concept.'The gates of hell shall NOT prevail.' against it??

Sure. Do you understand the scriptural meaning of the church of God..? If you did, you would not claim that it is soley the RCC.

 

[racer]

Perhaps she is one with the mind of the Catholic Church . . . Most people would call this unity.

God Bless

And most Christians are of one mind and united with their particular denominational faith. That's not such a novel accomplishment.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Ahhh, was He with the Marcions, and the Nestorians?
Was He with the Montanists, or Arains, Donatists....etc?

They certainly believed too. So it is not as easy as saying He is with all believers.....but BELIEVERS whom trust what they are taught by the Church built on Peter whereas the gates of hell Shall NOT PREVAIL..

I'm going out on a limb here........

because I have no clue as to what Marcions, Nestorians, Arians, Donatists believe. But I feel confident in saying that if it is contradictory to what Scripture clearly and plainly teaches then it was not Truth.

CC&E

 

[xapis]

Sure. Do you understand the scriptural meaning of the church of God..? If you did, you would not claim that it is soley the RCC.

 

[racer]

Traditions are the understandings of scripture. And what they truly mean.

More evasion. Listen if there is no answer, or people simply do not know what the extra-biblical Holy Tradtions are just say so.

For example; if a professor would strictly read a book to the class but had no clue what it meant...would they learn?

Some would.

No, they wouldnt and for this reason they must be able to UNDERSTAND what they are reading and teach it according to the truth behind the book vs what appeals to him in interpretation.

Some would learn, some would not. But, what you are describing is “teaching authority,” giving instruction on what is contained in the book, what it means, etc . . . . not “traditions.”

My favorite example is Shakepeare.
If a group gathered together to learn his works...what good would it do the class if he simply read the literary work, but gave no clue what it meant?

It would serve the purpose of “entertainment.” Not everybody wants to know all about Shakespeare’s symbolism. And, in his own time Shakespeare would not have been that hard to understand. The form of English that he used is almost like a foreign language to most who speak English today.
But, I understand the point you are making. That’s why a “teaching authority” is needed. That’s why there are churches and that’s why we have the Bible—to preserve for the purpose of instruction. This is not what “traditions” are. From Webster’s dictionary:

Tradition: 1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable ****e bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

Nowhere is &#8220;tradition&#8221; defined as &#8220;oral instruction given on written instruction,&#8221; which is basically what you have asserted here. To say that &#8220;Traditions&#8221; are understandings of Scripture is pretty much saying that Tradition and Scripture are one-and-the-same.

Using examples like your own, which I&#8217;ve done before, I&#8217;ll show you the flip side of your argument. A particular school decides upon its curriculum and picks text books accordingly. So, I&#8217;ll just pick a subject like Biology. The Biology teacher is bound by the curriculum and must teach according to the text book in use. He can not teach of his own volition what he believes regarding Biology. He must teach what is outlined and defined in the book he is given to teach from. Just because he is more knowledgeable regarding Biology than his students does not mean the students are bound to accept anything he says if they find or suspect it is not in line with what is taught in the text book. Being more knowledgeable about something does not give people the right to define it as they see fit without question from those who teach them.

For instance, Shakespeares time the language was vastly different, and to sit down and read for yourself would leave you thinking something altogether different than it really meant.

As I stated above, this is true for you and I, but not necessarily for those from Shakespeare&#8217;s own time.

"Wherefor art thou Romeo?" does NOT mean "Where are you Romeo?"

It means, why were you born into the family you were. [enemies]

Now since we have the TRADITIONAL understanding of the times and language, the meanings become more clear.

Thanks for the Language lesson.

This is why Tradition understands the Bible and why it passes on what scripture means.

Tradition can &#8220;understand&#8221; the Bible about as good as the &#8220;Bible&#8221; can interpret itself. Neither can do either.

Hence in 1500-2006 AD we have ppl who do not understand all of the cultural backgrounds and language who at todays rate will misinterpret it completely.

One thing about Scripture that was blatantly clear 2000 years ago is just as clear today, &#8220;all things are possible with God.&#8221; With Him there are no boundaries that can not be overcome.

The Authority of the Church is because the concepts have been orally outlined thru the ages.

I can not believe that rational people continue to insist on the validity of this elusive &#8220;oral&#8221; instruction. Why is it so important? So that claims that can not be substantiated can continue to be espoused as if there were any legitimate credibility to them? For instance, &#8220;We can make this claim because there&#8217;s no hard evidence available to disprove it.&#8221; Is that the reason behind it? I can&#8217;t believe that the flip side is not acknowledged, with no hard evidence to which skeptics can be referred, there&#8217;s no way to substantiate the claim.

And this is why Tradition and scripture cannot be separated one from another.

I will never understand the continued assertion that on one hand, Tradition and Scripture are two separate bodies of information, while on the other hand it is asserted that they can not be separated. I hope you will forgive my confusion.

Doctrines are based on the understandings behind what the Apostles taught.

Doctrines should be based upon what Jesus taught and nothing more. However, I realize I do not speak for what your church teaches.

Because the succession was MORE than just ordination, but strict teachings.

If called upon to do so, how would you defend this argument. What is your evidence? And I don&#8217;t mean who told you this. I mean, &#8220;what would be the source to which you would refer me to substantiate this claim?&#8221;

AND thus is why in time we have the Pope outline in current languages what a doctrine aka or dogma means.

There is no longer a need for a &#8220;Pope&#8221; to do this. This was taken care of by the and His apostles. It is the churches duty to pass on their teachings as instructed by them.

Since they were taight by the same teachings, they are infallible as long as they keep the Traditions of scriptures and what the Apostles meant.

Some of them&#8212;very few&#8212;were instructed by the apostles. WA, no ECF was infallible. Many of them taught contrary to each other.

The earliest Church fathers who were directly taught... have more inside scoop than someone who never studied what the Church teaches.

First, the earliest fathers &#8220;had&#8221; more inside scoop. Second, of course they had more information that someone who never studied what Jesus, the apostles and eventually the church teaches&#8212;especially since they never studied the Gospel.

Also, let's not forget even in the times of the Aposltes there were disputes on what the Apostles meant, which brought to us the Epistles...who clarified the early heresies.

Do you realize what you just said? What are epistles, and why were they necessitated?

Yet, through out time, even when the first Christians started..there were quarrels, but all through out Christiandom quarrels arose, and we have the Churches authors clarify them.

The authors to which you refer did not always concur with each other.

And you will see doctrines become more defined thru outthe ages as more ppl argue them.

The doctrines were defined all that they needed to be during the Apostolic age. Some people understand them better than others, but because many people do not/did not understand correctly disputes arise.

IT is when arguments arose that the Church defined.....and proclaimed.

It does not fall on the church to define or proclaim. The church teaches and clarifies what has already been defined and proclaimed.

In some ways...if we all were just to believe as a child, we would never have seen the 'against heresies' written over time by the fathers..

It is truly a scary thought to wonder what would have happened if the bible had never been afforded to us and we simply sat in the pews and listened to sermons without access to the Bible to confirm that what we were told was in fact truth.

But what was from the start will always continue.

There&#8217;s a reason for that. If we are judged individually, we are expected to be able to individually discern what is right and what is wrong. It&#8217;s my soul on the line, and when simple common sense shows that what a particular church is teaching is not what Scripture reveals, I&#8217;m going to do some studying and praying and trust that God will show me the way.

How can we expect our time to be different if even the times of the Apostles there were quarrels?

Who expects us to be different?

 

[PaladinWithGun2]

The context in which you originally quoted this verse is basically the same context as the question you propose to me.. ie, is it my private interpretation..?

All one really needs to do is read what Peter is speaking of here to see its immediate context..

Peter is speaking of the more sure word of prophecy which we have in the scriptures, and that we should take heed to them, knowing that they're not the product of man or man's imagination, but rather that they are God breathed..

Remember that Peter, James, and John HEARD THE VOICE of GOD when they were with the LORD on the mountain.. and Peter is telling us that we have something more sure than that.. more sure than hearing GOD'S AUDIBLE VOICE.. and that is within the scriptures.. again, he tells us to take heed..

This was at least the second time in this thread that this verse was used in a context to suggest that we as God's people can not interpret the scriptures.. yet all one needs to do is read it to see that Peter is not speaking of that, but rather that the scriptures are to be heeded, even moreso than an audible voice..because they are God breathed..

In my estimation, this is fairly basic and fundamental.. and yet we hear it used in a completely foreign context by those who tell us that we can not interpret (or understand) the scriptures, and that their church alone can..

I hope that we do not fall away from each other in disputes over dogma and forget that we are meant to be in fellowship as children of God, part of the body of Christ and heirs to a precious salvation. When we stand against each other, who will stand for Christ?
What cannot be questioned is what we should be thinking of: that God loved us, chose us from before time, and wants to make us his people. Let us remember that it is God's grace that has brought us together in love, because echoing in the shouts of our anger is the laughter of the enemy.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

NOW what is the history of your Church??

It started with Adam and Eve and they believed the Promise... It was continued by Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and many more (Hebrews 11). The Promise was fulfilled in Christ, who by His life, death and resurrection beings love and life. He remains the Lord of us - the Lord of the church, which is His body. Soli Deo Gloria!

A new day came with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the work of those who responded to the Great Commission and Great Commandment - moved by His love and empowered by His Spirit, bringing Christ to the nations - baptizing and teaching and making disciples of all nations. Soli Deo Gloria!

Christ taught, and fortunately those who heard Him recorded the Kergyma for us in Holy Scriptures - the words being verbally inspired, so that we have the very infallible authoritative written Word as our norm and guide, Soli Deo Gloria!

For twenty centuries now, with His call, love and power, we have moved forth with the Gospel - fulfilling the Great Commission in part by embracing the Great Commandment. Brothers and sisters in Christ, the children of God, by the grace of God. Soli Deo Gloria!

Most of these Christians, who collectively are the church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one holy catholic and apostolic church - have gathered into communities - first congregations (we see that already in the NT) and later some of these congregations came into various communities called "denominations" - seeking mutual edification, cooperation, encouragement and accountability, and God often has bless these as Christians come and work together to His glory and for the extension of His Kingdom. where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them! Soli Deo Gloria!

The body of believers are one in Christ, so that there is neither East or West, for Christ is our all-in-all. We are equally His children by grace through the Gift of faith, which makes us equal brothers and sisters, equal in His family, the church. Soli Deo Gloria!


My prayer is that we will always be people of faith, embracing the Great Commission and Great Commandment, following His example of HUMILITY and SERVICE, avoiding pride, exclusiveness, divisiveness and petty quarrels, celebrating our one Lord and faith - and supporting, encouraging, cooperating with all His church - the whole (catholic) church - to His glory, for the extension of His kingdom and the growth and joy of all our full brothers and sisters. Soli Deo Gloria!


Pax.


- Josiah


.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'm going out on a limb here........

because I have no clue as to what Marcions, Nestorians, Arians, Donatists believe. But I feel confident in saying that if it is contradictory to what Scripture clearly and plainly teaches then it was not Truth.

CC&E

Well for one thing, some were Catholic priests who disagreed with the Church and they became 'heretics' to the Church.

The Church, knowing truth, could not allow nor rectify their personal opinions with Apostolic teaching and so argued with them...read many early writings by St Augustine, St ireneaus and other early fathers, who wrote 'Against heresies.' And the end result was their excommunication when they refused to change their ideals.

Now each one of these heretics all believed in different things too. But each one died out eventually after the fathers in the Church disputed the meanings behind scripture according to the Teachings.

And we must not forget that Epistles were always written within the Churches from the Apostles to the fathers in order to restore what they previously preached ......and was used to reproove those who were creating heresies.

Although none of the Epistles cover everything previously preached, but only the concerns that led to the Apostles being brought in.

This is why Paul often explained himself as an Apostle so he could reach into their bull headedness.

 

[PaladinWithGun2]

It started with Adam and Eve and they believed the Promise... It was continued by Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and many more (Hebrews 11). The Promise was fulfilled in Christ, who by His life, death and resurrection beings love and life. He remains the Lord of us - the Lord of the church, which is His body. Soli Deo Gloria!

A new day came with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the work of those who responded to the Great Commission and Great Commandment - moved by His love and empowered by His Spirit, bringing Christ to the nations - baptizing and teaching and making disciples of all nations. Soli Deo Gloria!

Christ taught, and fortunately those who heard Him recorded the Kergyma for us in Holy Scriptures - the words being verbally inspired, so that we have the very infallible authoritative written Word as our norm and guide, Soli Deo Gloria!

For twenty centuries now, with His call, love and power, we have moved forth with the Gospel - fulfilling the Great Commission in part by embracing the Great Commandment. Brothers and sisters in Christ, the children of God, by the grace of God. Soli Deo Gloria!

Most of these Christians, who collectively are the church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one holy catholic and apostolic church - have gathered into communities - first congregations (we see that already in the NT) and later some of these congregations came into various communities called "denominations" - seeking mutual edification, cooperation, encouragement and accountability, and God often has bless these as Christians come and work together to His glory and for the extension of His Kingdom. where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them! Soli Deo Gloria!

The body of believers are one in Christ, so that there is neither East or West, for Christ is our all-in-all. We are equally His children by grace through the Gift of faith, which makes us equal brothers and sisters, equal in His family, the church. Soli Deo Gloria!


My prayer is that we will always be people of faith, embracing the Great Commission and Great Commandment, following His example of HUMILITY and SERVICE, avoiding pride, exclusiveness, divisiveness and petty quarrels, celebrating our one Lord and faith - and supporting, encouraging, cooperating with all His church - the whole (catholic) church - to His glory, for the extension of His kingdom and the growth and joy of all our full brothers and sisters. Soli Deo Gloria!


Pax.


- Josiah


.

Amen, Josiah! Well said, brother.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It started with Adam and Eve and they believed the Promise... It was continued by Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and many more (Hebrews 11). The Promise was fulfilled in Christ, who by His life, death and resurrection beings love and life. He remains the Lord of us - the Lord of the church, which is His body. Soli Deo Gloria!

A new day came with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the work of those who responded to the Great Commission and Great Commandment - moved by His love and empowered by His Spirit, bringing Christ to the nations - baptizing and teaching and making disciples of all nations. Soli Deo Gloria!

Christ taught, and fortunately those who heard Him recorded the Kergyma for us in Holy Scriptures - the words being verbally inspired, so that we have the very infallible authoritative written Word as our norm and guide, Soli Deo Gloria!

For twenty centuries now, with His call, love and power, we have moved forth with the Gospel - fulfilling the Great Commission in part by embracing the Great Commandment. Brothers and sisters in Christ, the children of God, by the grace of God. Soli Deo Gloria!

Most of these Christians, who collectively are the church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one holy catholic and apostolic church - have gathered into communities - first congregations (we see that already in the NT) and later some of these congregations came into various communities called "denominations" - seeking mutual edification, cooperation, encouragement and accountability, and God often has bless these as Christians come and work together to His glory and for the extension of His Kingdom. where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them! Soli Deo Gloria!

The body of believers are one in Christ, so that there is neither East or West, for Christ is our all-in-all. We are equally His children by grace through the Gift of faith, which makes us equal brothers and sisters, equal in His family, the church. Soli Deo Gloria!


My prayer is that we will always be people of faith, embracing the Great Commission and Great Commandment, following His example of HUMILITY and SERVICE, avoiding pride, exclusiveness, divisiveness and petty quarrels, celebrating our one Lord and faith - and supporting, encouraging, cooperating with all His church - the whole (catholic) church - to His glory, for the extension of His kingdom and the growth and joy of all our full brothers and sisters. Soli Deo Gloria!


Pax.


- Josiah


.

Ok, please give me the history of the church since Christ and all the men who recorded the truth throughout history to bring us to your point of view.

I am interested in the authority of scriptures and whom they were.

I do not believe the truth died for 1500 years and suddenly appeared, so I am assuming you have someone from the past who was introduced to the world thru AND IN the time of the Apostles who would know what scripture means. I am sincere.

 

[Asinner]

Okay. Not sure what your point is though.

Those who wrote the writings in the NT understood the interpretation. Did they keep this a secret? Or did they also teach orally? The interpretation of scripture has been known always by the Church, i.e., Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Timothy, the Apostles, disciples, and thusly, were taught to their disciples, so on and so forth. Why would knowledge of what the interpretation of scripture meant stop at the death of those who wrote it? What about Ignatius and Polycarp, who were disciples of John? Did they not receive the teachings of Christ? It is these "teachings" that God has preserved. Is it so ludicrus to conceive that we still have these same teachings today? Must one comprehend it intellectually for it to be true (the Eucharist for example). Most of the teachings left by Christ, IMO, are CRAZY teachings (the resurrection). Who can fathom these things (the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Church)? Private interpretation today is based on REASON. Most cannot reason it within themselves that the Eucharist is Christ's Flesh and Blood. Christianity is not about what we can believe but about what is impossible to believe - FAITH. Faith in the teachings of Christ, but more importantly, faith in the Church that It is the very manifestation of these teachings. Our reason limits what the Church really is - the Kingdom of God which encompasses the fullness of truth. Is the fullness of truth in me alone? NO! Is it in you or any individual? NO! It is in the Church as a WHOLE. This is why private interpretation is not possible.


*Asinner awaits the ambush*

Well, my destination is not the church or destruction, but God and His Kingdom.

Is this found within your intellect, Racer? You can only trust yourself?

Yes. The Kingdom of God is within. Our hearts must by purified before our intellect can begin to comprehend. When we begin with intellect, we begin backwards, and we interpret God's Word with our passions.

God Bless