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Hieronymus

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Apparently? Why do you use word so lightly as they had no meaning at all?
Well, it goes quite unnoticed in my experience.
But Scripture suggests that God draws people to Him.
The Sheppard collects the sheep.
This can be through revelation, it can be through life itself that makes you look for the Truth, like when your worldly life fails to satisfy, or falls apart (due to various causes).
The irony being that if life goes your way, you don't feel a need for God.
 
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AV1611VET

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How about first explaing what you mean with "free will" before you asking anybody if it can "get back" in any sense.
A man dies and goes to Heaven.

He sees the people there, broken up into two groups: Calvinists and Baptists.

He goes over to the Calvinist side:

Calvinist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I chose to come here, because I ...
Calvinist: Out! Go to the other group.
Man: But I ...
Calvinist: Out!

The man leaves and goes to the other side:

Baptist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I was told to come here.
Baptist: Out!
 
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PsychoSarah

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A man dies and goes to Heaven.

He sees the people there, broken up into two groups: Calvinists and Baptists.

He goes over to the Calvinist side:

Calvinist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I chose to come here, because I ...
Calvinist: Out! Go to the other group.
Man: But I ...
Calvinist: Out!

The man leaves and goes to the other side:

Baptist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I was told to come here.
Baptist: Out!
-_- is this your way of comparing how Calvinists believe in predetermination, while Baptists don't? Because if so, the Calvinist even asking that initial question doesn't make any sense, because they view anyone that goes to heaven as chosen by god, so they'd already know the answer to it without asking.
 
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AV1611VET

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-_- is this your way of comparing how Calvinists believe in predetermination, while Baptists don't?
No.

I was answering what I think is a silly question with a silly joke.
 
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In situ

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Well, it goes quite unnoticed in my experience.
But Scripture suggests that God draws people to Him.
The Sheppard collects the sheep.
This can be through revelation, it can be through life itself that makes you look for the Truth, like when your worldly life fails to satisfy, or falls apart (due to various causes).
The irony being that if life goes your way, you don't feel a need for God.

Perhaps, but scripture is not relevant as evidence. Maybe it is for you, but for most people it is not (claiming something to be true does not make it true). My question is, do you concede it is not obvious, i.e. that the evidence does not suggest it is so?
 
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In situ

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A man dies and goes to Heaven.

He sees the people there, broken up into two groups: Calvinists and Baptists.

He goes over to the Calvinist side:

Calvinist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I chose to come here, because I ...
Calvinist: Out! Go to the other group.
Man: But I ...
Calvinist: Out!

The man leaves and goes to the other side:

Baptist: Welcome to Heaven, brother. What brought you here to this group?
Man: I was told to come here.
Baptist: Out!

Interesting, however it still does not clarify to me what you mean with "free will". What you did was to replace one word, "will", with another, "choice", and then left the the meaning hanging in the air. So again, what do you mean with "free will/choice" or whatever you like to call it??
 
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In situ

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No.

I was answering what I think is a silly question with a silly joke.

Perhaps you think the question is silly because you do not - or you do - realize the implication of giving a definition. Because once you define it, you will not be able to play your little rhetoric games any more, such as asking "none"-silly question whether we can "get it back" if we can control the weather.

Notice, I do not require or demand a "correct" answer, I just want to know what you mean with "free will" so I can understand what you are asking about. Because you are to be taken serious and are not asking any silly questions, right?
 
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Papias

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Well, it goes quite unnoticed in my experience.
But Scripture suggests that God draws people to Him.
The Sheppard collects the sheep.

But that would suggest that God is slacking off, as more and more Americans leave Christianity. A little math shows that this amounts to 400 fewer Christians each hour of each day.

r23235jxbuuc7z7_ywneqq.gif


So you are saying that this is God's fault?

Papias
 
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Armoured

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Whenever you see the phrase "Darwinian-based 'Scientism'" you can pretty much conclude that they don't know what they are talking about. Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it say that we are "controlled" by our genes. The theory incorporates adaptive responses to environmental cues.

Darwinian evolution deals with heritable traits. Epigenetic changes are not heritable, so they really are not a valid mechanism for long term change in species. A good analogy is the difference between your innate skin color and tanning. Your basal level of melanin production is inherited. Your ability to increase melanin production in response to sun exposure is also inherited. However, if you are very tan and have a child, this will not cause the child to be more tan at birth. That is not heritable.

So it is with epigenetics. The ability to change gene expression through mechanisms like DNA methylation is inherited. Which genes you methylate in response to specific environmental cues can also be inherited. However, your current DNA methylation patterns, i.e. epigenetics, is NOT inherited.
The analogy I use is "genes give you the bucket, epigenetic /environment determines how much and of what you put in it".
 
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Hieronymus

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Perhaps, but scripture is not relevant as evidence.
Not to you apparently..
Maybe it is for you, but for most people it is not (claiming something to be true does not make it true)
Duh...
Do you think i believe this stuff for no reason, that there's no evidence?
What makes you assume that?
Popular prejudices?
. My question is, do you concede it is not obvious, i.e. that the evidence does not suggest it is so?
I do not concede.
Seek truth and find it.
Test everything.
 
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Hieronymus

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But that would suggest that God is slacking off, as more and more Americans leave Christianity.
It is foretold that people becomemore and moreintollerant to the truth.
I think we can clearly see that in western culture.
So you are saying that this is God's fault?
Am i saying that?
Where did i say or imply that?
 
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Armoured

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Not to you apparently..Duh...
Do you think i believe this stuff for no reason, that there's no evidence?
What makes you assume that?
Popular prejudices?I do not concede.
Seek truth and find it.
Test everything.
Soooo... show us your evidence?
 
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dysert

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But that would suggest that God is slacking off, as more and more Americans leave Christianity. A little math shows that this amounts to 400 fewer Christians each hour of each day.

r23235jxbuuc7z7_ywneqq.gif


So you are saying that this is God's fault?

Papias
1. It's not God's fault.
2. This is just USA. Perhaps a world-wide view would show a rise in Christianity?
3. There's a correlation between an increase in immorality (which I don't have a graph for) and a decrease in professing Christians.
 
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Armoured

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1. It's not God's fault.
2. This is just USA. Perhaps a world-wide view would show a rise in Christianity?
3. There's a correlation between an increase in immorality (which I don't have a graph for) and a decrease in professing Christians.
Define "increase in immorality" because to some of us, the trend seems to be going the other way, despite what the siege mentality armchair persecution wannabee martys tell us.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Not to you apparently..Duh...
You would have to admit, the whole story is difficult to believe if one is not indoctrinated into it. I've been trying to believe it unsuccessfully for nearly 8 years.

Do you think i believe this stuff for no reason, that there's no evidence?
Not quite, more like people have different standards of evidence and biases that lead to different conclusions. The thing is, though, if you want what the bible says to be true, that most certainly means your bias is in favor of it, due to emotional attachment. Contrary to what you might hear, atheists such as myself don't want the theory of evolution to represent reality, the evidence is what leads us to that conclusion. If evolution was disproven today, I might be surprised, but I wouldn't be sad or angry. I'd probably be happy if, in disproving it, it was replaced with a theory that better represented reality.

What makes you assume that?
The majority of the time, the evidence that convinces people like yourself of the existence of a deity doesn't satisfy the standard of evidence within a skeptical mind. Personal miracles are a great example of this; anyone can claim to have witnessed a deity's influence, and as real as the event might seem to them, other people have no reason to view their eyewitness account as trustworthy, due to the fact that eyewitness testimony is considered to be exceedingly unreliable. That, and most of the people that claim to have had these experiences were already religious, and biased in favor of a supernatural explanation.

Popular prejudices?I do not concede.
Everyone has some degree of bias, no matter how hard they fight against it. If you were indoctrinated as a child, then a bias in favor of theism was ingrained into you long before you had the mental fortitude to actually evaluate the situation without that favoritism. While I was not indoctrinated into atheism by any means, I was raised in a nonreligious household, and my naturally inquisitive mind lead to certain events that built up my skepticism at a ridiculously young age. That being, I figured out icons such as Santa Claus were not real on my own, one by one, and that my mother had lied to me when she proclaimed their existence. When I did hear about god, it gave an impression similar to these figures, but the adults around me were very dodgy whenever I asked questions about it. But, based on what I heard from others, I tried to get this being to interact with me or show itself, most frequently by praying when all seemed lost. I never once got a prayer answered, not even years after I made it. If I prayed to find a lost toy, the toy was never found, even if I persisted in looking. If I invited the being to converse with me, I heard nothing. By the age of 8, I concluded that the being must be as much fantasy as Santa Claus. Still, in truly hopeless situations, I would think of praying as a last resort, something worth a try, but they were never answered. By the age of 10, I didn't bother anymore.

Seek truth and find it.
Test everything.
I do it all the time. I have yet to find conclusive evidence for any deity or deities.

To continue the above, when I turned 13, I experienced the first death of people close to me; my great grandmother and my paternal grandmother died within a month of each other. I was devastated; these wonderful people that had been such a positive influence on my life, gone forever. While death creeping closer had bothered me for years even by that point (curse my unnatural tendency to look ahead), it had never filled me with such profound dread and anguish. I could not accept that these people were gone, that my life would be watching those I cared about disappear one by one, until I too followed them into oblivion. In desperation, I seeked anything that would serve as even paltry evidence for an afterlife. This resulted in a weird mental state that lasted for a year or so, as well as starting my sequence of churches that I attended throughout my life. I kid you not, for a period of time, the show Ghosthunters convinced me that an afterlife existed. I even thought dreams could tell the future XD. Yet, even my church attendance never convinced me of the existence of any deities.

My fruitless search eventually made me very bitter. The promise of faith to comfort me in my despair never came. There... was no god. There... was no afterlife. There was only this temporary existence, doomed to be taken away at some unknown point. So fragile. Nihilism set in, as well as an angry jealousy towards those that had found faith, forming an emotional hurricane of angst and sorrow. Briefly, I was a gnostic atheist, convinced that no deities could possibly exist, that my own life experiences proved as much.

But, a college philosophy class changed my outlook entirely. How ironic that the institution associated so strongly with people losing faith would rekindle my desire to seek it out. When I presented my arguments that I felt once and for all disproved the existence of deities, I got my butt kicked debating the instructor. Now this man was no theist himself, but he showed me the truth: we don't really know if deities exist or not. This didn't really provide much comfort in terms of my theological perspective, but it rejuvenated that goal I had given up on. I know not if deities exist, but if they do, I am going to find undeniable proof, and share it with the world! Even if there is nothing to find, I will never be certain of that, and will never know that my search is in vain. If I find conclusive evidence that disproves the existence of deities, as unlikely as that is... I will keep my despair to myself. I see little point in destroying an institution that I have attempted to become a part of for most of my life, or spreading my unhappiness. It certainly wouldn't remove it completely either, as there will always be people that stick their heads in the sand to avoid the truth, so any social benefits assumed with the end of theism wouldn't occur.
 
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Loudmouth

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That's not for you to say without extensive validation of your theory
over long periods of time. And then, it's still a theory.


"DNA methylation is typically removed during zygote formation and re-established through successive cell divisions during development."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_methylation

The epigenetic patterns are wiped from the genome during the production of sperm and eggs. We don't need long periods of time to determine this.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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But that would suggest that God is slacking off, as more and more Americans leave Christianity. A little math shows that this amounts to 400 fewer Christians each hour of each day.

r23235jxbuuc7z7_ywneqq.gif


So you are saying that this is God's fault?

Papias

Papias, surely if one is going to enter into Bible-speak here --- we have to bring to bear the whole prophetic argument that there is to be a "Falling Away" before the Lord returns -- "the love of many will wax cold"
There is a sense then in which God does begin "shaking the earth and it's inhabitants" so that though "many are called, few are chosen" -- everyone is called to but only a few are chosen (something we clearly don't have the details on - not knowing the mind of God) -- unless one believes in some form of universal faith where everyone is ultimately brought into heaven -- whether by conversion, or by going through purgatory etc.

A very deep subject and probably something to be discussed on the Theology forum of this site.

Back to reading the relevant stuff.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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