Epicurus Quote

[_EX]

Epicurus believed in gods, he was trying to disprove the notion of a personal, caring god. But as for a response: (it should also be noted that no major academics consider the Epicuriean argument to be of any real value)

Actually, in today's society, he would likely be an Atheist.

Back then, he said pretty much every blasphemy apart from "Gods do not exist". There is a resason he never went that far. Death was a pretty important punishment for saying things like that against Roman state gods.

But, he taught that the gods wouldnt care about what we do so we should just live our lives. He pretty much taught to ignore them.

Epicureanism had a large following around this time and he no doubt lead to the eventual fall of Roman state religion. There were many other factors but his philosophies set people free from religious obligations and this was not good for any religion.
If he believed in gods, he had a funny way of showing it...

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Actually, in today's society, he would likely be an Atheist.

Back then, he said pretty much every blasphemy apart from "Gods do not exist". There is a resason he never went that far. Death was a pretty important punishment for saying things like that against Roman state gods.

But, he taught that the gods wouldnt care about what we do so we should just live our lives. He pretty much taught to ignore them.

Epicureanism had a large following around this time and he no doubt lead to the eventual fall of Roman state religion. There were many other factors but his philosophies set people free from religious obligations and this was not good for any religion.
If he believed in gods, he had a funny way of showing it...

From what I've gathered, he believed they existed, but wanted to pretty much give them the finger as much as he could.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Very good question. Also very hard to answer.

 

[LoraElise]

God is the potter. We are the clay. We cannot question His motives or actions. He does as He wills, and we have nothing to say about it. He owes us nothing, but loves us deeply enough to have died in our place.

One either trusts Him or one doesn't.

 

[new_wine]

The quote cannot be sourced to Epicurus.

It is mis-attributed to him because of Lactantius' treatise on the Wrath of God (De Ira Dei) who attributed it to Epicurus even though there is no source from Epicurus that states such a thought.

Lactantius was a Christian theologian who lived long after Epicurus and was anti-Epicurean.

So the whole quote should be left on its own and no mention of Epicurus should be made.

Hey fellow believers.

I heard this today and I have no idea how to take it

If you havent heard it, here it is:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I also heard that God is able but not willing, for test purposes.
However, an omnipotent God wouldnt need to test us as he should know already and the test (life) is not fair. It is not a fair test.

So, how does one take this?
Please explain it to me.

 

[_EX]

Evil is not a created thing. It is a non-thing (like darkness, emptiness, slience, etc). It is the absence of good. Thus, evil does not exist because anyone created it. God is the only good. The absence of God is therefore evil. And, for free will to be free, it must allow the rejection of God. Therefore, evil is a necessary consequence of free will.

Evil is an act.
The absence of good doesnt mean evil. If I dont do something good, I can be doing something neutral. I am not committing evil.
If I am not donating to charity, am I doing something evil right now?

If I play gameboy, am I doing evil, am I doing good?


I can also commit evil out of love. Therefore the action (either good or evil) is not the only factor, intention is involved. When God told Abraham to kill his son, the act was evil but it was something God commanded. If he actually did it, it wouldntve been an evil action, would it?

If you believe evil people exist, you are wrong again.
Hitler, who may be called "evil" has some good traits. He was loyal, loving to his fellow men etc. he cannot be evil because good isnt absent from him

And, God gives you the ability to reject Him. And, this freedom cannot exist without a potential for evil.

You can reject God without evil. Simply not believing isnt an evil act. It is a neutral act but I wouldnt go to heaven for it, correct?

Good luck with that.

Im weeding through all the bad replies, thanks.

From what I've gathered, he believed they existed, but wanted to pretty much give them the finger as much as he could.

Well, open disbelief in the Gods wasnt really an option then.
Either he beleived and ignored/resented them or he disbelieved.

The quote cannot be sourced to Epicurus.

It is mis-attributed to him because of Lactantius' treatise on the Wrath of God (De Ira Dei) who attributed it to Epicurus even though there is no source from Epicurus that states such a thought.

Lactantius was a Christian theologian who lived long after Epicurus and was anti-Epicurean.

So the whole quote should be left on its own and no mention of Epicurus should be made.

Wow. I didnt know that.

Thanks.

 

[Armistead14]

I don't see evil as the absense of good, that's just too simple. The fact is God was still in charge. If we know only goodness could exist on it's own, then God didn't have to create beings, emotions, etc., that could do evil.

If you look at Adam and Eve, seems they were set up to fall, all the pieces were put in place for them. They had no choice in the matter.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

They had no choice in the matter.

That's actually a load of crap

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Why did the One take on the appearance of duality? Why ignorance? That's the ultimate question in this regard. The thing is there is no "why". "Why" only exists within duality in the first place. It's nonsensical to ask a "why" in an arena that a "why" isn't possible. It's simply a given we have to deal with. The question can't be answered rationaly because rationality is a product of the appearance of duality to begin with. It can't go beyond it's limit.

 

[Armistead14]

That's actually a load of crap

How could it be, look at the facts. Who made Satan, who made man with the ability to sin?

When Satan fell, why didn't God destroy him then if he knew all the damage he would do, why didn't he take away his power or at least place him on another planet instead of giving Satan dominion over the earth, the same earth where he placed man? One can argue Christ took dominion back, but before God made Satan he already knew how he would make him and what he would do and made him anyway. Satan couldn't have emotions like jealously unless they were part of his biology. We have no story of how Satan came to knowledge of good or evil, but we know evil arose in this being created by who?

Why would God place a tree of knowledge in the garden, knowing it would be the downfall of man?

Why would Satan with all his power be allowed in the garden, with the tree and man?

It seems all the pieces were put in place by God. Most seem to believe God had a perfect plan and his creation ruined it, so if man can ruin God's perfect plan, who's to say it couldn't happen again in heaven? Most would say God wouldn't allow it, so why did he allow his perfect plan to get messed up to start with?

Most seem to believe Satan and man had more control and ruined God's plan, so God went to plan B. You may say no, God allowed that, well, if God created something with those emotions and allowed it knowing he could stop it, who is in control?

It seems clear man had total knowledge and freewill before the fall. They chose not to eat unless tempted. How can you even be tempted if you don't have the knowledge to understand what you're being tempted about? Satan told them they could be like God, that shows they knew about power, greed and lust before they ate. Certainly if they had these emotions, they had them all.

You can say God allows, but someone had to put all the pieces of the puzzle together so "allowing" could happen. It's obvious to me man was created and good and evil would exist in man. Satan, nor man has the power to create emotions, good or evil.

Man was created a failed human being from the beginning, not the garden, it's part of our makeup to do sin, not one man but Christ has been sinless.

Why I believe God ordained evil as part of this earth, it doesn't mean we do evil, he put the choice there for us, both choices.

Many use the world God gave us two choices so we wouldn't be Robots, will we be Robots in heaven where only good will be.?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Nah.

 

[LoraElise]

Most seem to believe Satan and man had more control and ruined God's plan, so God went to plan B. You may say no, God allowed that, well, if God created something with those emotions and allowed it knowing he could stop it, who is in control?

There is no Plan B. There is only Plan A, and always was, and it is right on schedule.

God knew before anything or anyone was created what it would take to end up where He wanted things to be -- with a people who love Him, who He loves. In order to get there, all things had to happen as they have, and are.

Had man never fallen, that potential for evil would always have been there. But since we fell and have been redeemed through Christ, that evil has been removed as an issue and a barrier.

 

[Armistead14]

Nah.

Didn't think so..

 

[Walter Kovacs]

I meant, Nah, as in, I think you're wrong, and dont' feel like getting into a 500 post debate about something that will ultimately not change the way anyone actually lives.

 

[Armistead14]

There is no Plan B. There is only Plan A, and always was, and it is right on schedule.

God knew before anything or anyone was created what it would take to end up where He wanted things to be -- with a people who love Him, who He loves. In order to get there, all things had to happen as they have, and are.

Had man never fallen, that potential for evil would always have been there. But since we fell and have been redeemed through Christ, that evil has been removed as an issue and a barrier.

Again, seems man had all the same emotions, good and evil before the fall, no ones proven otherwise, but I agree it was part of his plan. The bible says all things were created through and for Christ, all powers in heaven and earth.

Nothing can do evil until it has the potential to do so.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

God didn't create evil. He created a beautiful angel who had the potential to become evil. That's like saying the egg a hen lays is a chick. No. It's only a potential chick.

Perhaps the story of Lucifer ought to make us rethink our ideas about Angels being automatonic to the will of God. It's obvious that Lucifer allowed pride to corrupt him, and that he chose to act against God, making the transformation of Lucifer into an evil being completely Lucifers choice. So maybe the whole "Angels can only do or think what God lets them do or think" ideaology needs to be scrapped...

The question remains: If God knew about it why didn't he stop it? Because free will dictated the ability for Lucifer to fall away from God, but also to stop before he got too far, beyond redemption.
I have a theory. I call it the theory of spiritual physics (this isn't based on biblical teaching, but I don't find contradictions in the Bible, and it helps me cope).

God has created a set of laws for the spiritual world to abide by. These laws also apply to him because he cannot contradict himself (he cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it).

One of these laws is the law of free will. God created free will with the intention to allow those he created, and loves to love him back (thus making the love given from humanity to God true, genuine love...not the love of a pet or toy). Because he created this law of free will he cannot contradict it because he would be contradicting himself.

To interfere with free will in order to stop evil means God would also have to interfere with the part of free will that makes our love for him genuine. So this must mean that if God was willing to allow evil to take hold in the world, the love he gives us, and the love he recieves from us as Christians, is GREATER than ANY evil this side of Paradise.

Evil, and it's consequences are huge costs, especially from our perspective, but imagine a love, true, genuine, that is so great it makes that huge cost of evil nothing in comparison.

That's a whole lotta love we get to give and receive.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

But I couldnt choose something if it wasnt a predestined action that I can do.
I cant bite my ears because it isnt a predestined action that I can do. God has to allow that action. Nothing can be done if not allowed by God.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil but they did anyways. God told the Israelites to follow His commandments but they didn't. God tells us to follow the teachings of Christ and we fail to do that all the time. I think it's safe to say that we chose things that goes against God's will. Does God know that we will chose them? Yes! But does that mean God predestined us to chose it, no because the knowing doesn't mean He forced the action.

Not really. Even to me, this doesnt answer it.

Not quite sure what would be a satisfactory answer for you. If you believe that you can't do anything without being predestined to do them, I'm not sure how you apply that to God. Do you believe that God is predestined to do something? The question posed by Epicurus is not about us humans but about God.

But it is like buying stuff. I cant buy anything not on sale.
I cant create an action to do if it isnt put there by God, correct?

You can certainly buy things for the retail price. You chose not to buy anything on sale. God doesn't chose your actions for you...if that was the case He wouldn't spend so much time in the scripture explaining to us why our actions need to be more Christ-like.

Just plain old "free will"

It really is just plain on "free will".

We can have free will without evil. There can be a list of only good choice to make. it is a possibility.
My friends have told me this countless times.

You can make good choices but it doesn't mean the consequences won't be evil. The bible tells us that Satan roam around like a roaring lion waiting for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8) and that's why the struggle between the flesh and the spirit is so powerful. We fight against what the world says is okay and what God says it's okay.

Your friend might have told you that you can have free will without evil but have your friend always make good choices where no evil is involved. Even if "evil" is not seen, it most certainly can be though of.

Your answer seem to dance around the question. Maybe its just a vibe.
I cant use this stuff sorry.
I need more.

I heard the bible is good at answering questions. It's best to look to it than us to try and explain stuff like this.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Most seem to believe Satan and man had more control and ruined God's plan, so God went to plan B. You may say no, God allowed that, well, if God created something with those emotions and allowed it knowing he could stop it, who is in control?

Always God.

Hebrews 10:5-7
Therefore, when He came into the world He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sins You Have no pleasure, then I said:, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written to Me--To do Your will, O God.'"​

This was a prophecy from Psalms 40:6-8! God was fully in control. Why He lets it happen is an answer we are not given but there was never a time when God lost control.

 

[99percentatheism]

Hey fellow believers.

I heard this today and I have no idea how to take it

If you havent heard it, here it is:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I also heard that God is able but not willing, for test purposes.
However, an omnipotent God wouldnt need to test us as he should know already and the test (life) is not fair. It is not a fair test.

So, how does one take this?
Please explain it to me.

It's something some dude made up in a co-ed dorm to seduce some pretty Christian that he wanted to have sex with.