Ephesians 2:8-9

[twin1954]

Revelation 3:20English Standard Version (ESV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Using a passage out of its context again. Who is the Lord speaking to in the passage? When you answer that you will know how you misuse the passage.


HINT: it is a church.

 

[miamited]

I have a question regarding the "gift of God" that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:8.

What is the "gift" that is being referred to in this verse? Is grace the gift or is the gift faith?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

Thanks,
BG

Hi bookishgirl,

The gift is our salvation. Not a one of us deserves it, but God has offered it to every man as a gift. It is because of His wonderful grace that He has offered us the gift. He didn't have to. But praise God He did!

God bless you
In Christ, Ted

 

[twin1954]

Titus 2:11English Standard Version (ESV)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Yes it has appeared to all men in the Gospel. But the grammar does not say that it is bringing salvation for all people. The context actually helps in the proper interpretation of the Greek sentence structure.

 

[Soyeong]

The speaker is telling us what he thinks but does not take into account that the neuter "this" primarily is used to refer to all that precedes in the statement. That is why it is in the neuter. If it only was intended to refer to one of the nouns its case and gender would agree.

Fair enough, though I think if faith is a gift, it is only a gift insofar as God gives us reasons to have faith.

 

[Patmos]

↑
No God does not force anyone against their will, that is a straw man, He makes them willing.
Well, I am confused!

Well, I am confused!

I believe 'Crickets' is an appropriate response.

 

[Patmos]

Twin peaks claims above"
"This is another of the Arminian proof texts but all it actually shows is the insanity of unbelief. God gives a command that all believe but they neither will nor can. It is insane."

Referring to Acts 17:30 -In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

So are Bible believers to conclude they are themselves insane or the Bible is insane ?

 

[Patmos]

Of course you are. That would be because though you claim to know what Calvinists believe you obviously do not.

Excuse me.

Since being on this web site I have not made any claim of what Calvinists believe or what I think they believe. Another example of your (twin) false witness.

Also I loved your post 17 ( apart where you say I twist things though I have only posted scripture - without comment). Apart from that you post a lot of scripture and say "this is what Arminians believe". Some progress. keep it up.

 

[Hank77]

The speaker is telling us what he thinks but does not take into account that the neuter "this" primarily is used to refer to all that precedes in the statement. That is why it is in the neuter. If it only was intended to refer to one of the nouns its case and gender would agree.

Sorry but this explanation does not survive the grammar rules of Greek. That is why there is much disagreement as to 'what' 'that/this' is referring to. What is the correct antecedent of 'this/that' in Eph. 2:8.
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1246
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

Personally I believe it can be said that it is referring to salvation as a whole. Obviously grace is a gift of God and faith is a gift of God. Without the God, without the Gospel, without the drawing of the Holy Spirit, we would not/could not have faith to believe the Gospel message to be saved.
G + F = S

 

[Patmos]

....

As for a gift being refused it is impossible. It wouldn't be a gift if it could be. .....
Is this supposed to be an example of what Calvinists believe? If so you really don't have a clue what we believe. The Scriptures are very He never turned anyone down who actually desired Him. If both men had wanted to be saved..

A better analogy of the Arminian view would be both men in the water and the lifeboat comes along and offers them both life if they will only get themselves into the boat. One chooses to do so and the other does not. The one who is saved actually saved himself by his choosing to do something that the one who perished did not. He merited his salvation by his choice.

IIRC the pilot was saved as well. He didn't refuse the offer he simply allowed someone to go ahead of him. Poor analogy again I am afraid.

I do not want to hog the thread. The gift can be refused. In the example above the pilot died after passing the rope to other passengers. FACT, twin.
In fact he refused it because he thought it was his fault the plane crashed because he skimped on the de-icing prior to take off.

As for your 'better anaolgy" . No doubt you miss the point deliberatly. Frightened of debate so smother it over - old tactic. No it is not 'supposed to be anything' let alone 'what Calvinist are supposed to believe'. You have a real problem with this very blinkered approach.

You may be aware that there are many different points of view within Calvinism, same with Arminianism - if you were to open your eyes "maybe God has not done this for you yet".

BTW your 'better analogy'- not just shows your obsession with changing what people actual say, it is offensive.

 

[Patmos]

Two men jump overboard their sinking ship. They are cold and tired, near death. A rescue boat comes. They both wave,shout and attract the attention of the rescue boat which comes along side. One man is hauled aboard and lives. The other is left and dies. Did the man who lives do anything meritous to save himself given that his actions were no different from the one who perished ?

Note-
It is not a claim or analogy of what one group or other might think.
Both men earnestly want to be saved.
Neither man has any energy left to climb in the boat himself, it is all down to the rescuer. As I said, one man is HAULED aboard.

Anyone else have a thoughts on this ?

 

[Patmos]

Of the two men in need of rescue in the previous post.
Not the case one was Calvinist the other Arminian.
They held the same theological position.

 

[twin1954]

Twin peaks claims above"
"This is another of the Arminian proof texts but all it actually shows is the insanity of unbelief. God gives a command that all believe but they neither will nor can. It is insane."

Referring to Acts 17:30 -In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

So are Bible believers to conclude they are themselves insane or the Bible is insane ?

You obviously didn't actually read my post. Instead of accusing me of claiming that the Bible or believers are insane you should have noticed that I said that unbelief is insane.

 

[twin1954]

Excuse me.

Since being on this web site I have not made any claim of what Calvinists believe or what I think they believe. Another example of your (twin) false witness.

Also I loved your post 17 ( apart where you say I twist things though I have only posted scripture - without comment). Apart from that you post a lot of scripture and say "this is what Arminians believe". Some progress. keep it up.

Yes you posted Scripture without comment out of its context in order to further your pretext of free will choice.

My posting of the Scriptures are to show the actual Scriptures as they are in their context. I just point out the very plain and clear words that you seem to want to ignore in your proof texts.

Are you going to claim that your use of Rev. 3:20 is legitimate?

 

[Hank77]

It isn't all or nothing it is simple definitions of words and the difference between them. Why use the word gift if an offer is intended?

Yup, I can do whatever I choose to do with a gift. If someone gives me a gift, I can refuse to take it. If they send it in the mail I can refuse the package, I can refuse to open it to even see what is inside, I can open it examine it and decide to return it. I could keep it for awhile and decide I don't like it and throw it away.

In the boat analogy, in the Calvinist view, the rescuer saves one man and chooses not to save the other. The rescuer ignores the other dying man. By God's choice He allows that man to drown in the fires of Molech.

I believe Calvin couldn't imagine that God, or anyone that had complete control, would actually choose to allow men to choose. If God would allow men to choose Him because He first loved them, then He couldn't possibly really be an omnipotent God.

Note-
It is not a claim or analogy of what one group or other might think.
Both men earnestly want to be saved.
Neither man has any energy left to climb in the boat himself, it is all down to the rescuer. As I said, one man is HAULED aboard.

Anyone else have a thoughts on this ?

Both men have realized their need to be saved and there is only one way that can happen, if the rescuer hauls him into the boat.

What of two men sitting on a peaceful, sunny beach, just chillin'. Neither one realizes that they are in grave danger. Along comes a stranger who tells them that he just heard that there is a tsunami coming their way and if they will follow him, he will take them to a safe place. One man thanks him and is anxious to go with him. The other man looks at the calm ocean waters, the sunny sky, smiles at the man and say thanks but I think I'll be just fine here where I am. What caused the first man to believe the warning but not the second man?

 

[twin1954]

Yup, I can do whatever I choose to do with a gift. If someone gives me a gift, I can refuse to take it. If they send it in the mail I can refuse the package, I can refuse to open it to even see what is inside, I can open it examine it and decide to return it. I could keep it for awhile and decide I don't like it and throw it away.

That is the whole point. If I give you a gift I make it yours to do with as you desire because it now belongs to you. I gave it to you. If I offer you something you can refuse it and it never becomes yours to begin with. You have no right to it or control over it because it isn't yours. Why is such a simple concept so difficult to understand by those who want to defend man's imaginary free will salvation?

In the boat analogy, in the Calvinist view, the rescuer saves one man and chooses not to save the other. The rescuer ignores the other dying man. By God's choice He allows that man to drown in the fires of Molech.

Actually the boat analogy is false in the first place. What it doesn't take into account is that both of the men deserve to die. God is not obligated to save any. The amazing thing is that He saves any of us. We are sinners by birth and by choice and deserve nothing but the unmitigated wrath of God in eternal damnation. For God to choose to save any of us is a wonder of His mercy and grace.

{quote]I believe Calvin couldn't imagine that God, or anyone that had complete control, would actually choose to allow men to choose. If God would allow men to choose Him because He first loved them, then He couldn't possibly really be an omnipotent God. [/quote] What God doesn't control must control Him. Whatever controls Him is His God. A study of the attributes of God will shine a great deal of light on the sovereignty and character of God as He describes Himself in the Scriptures. He never says I wish, I hope, I want or I plan. He says I will and then usually follows it with and you shall. He never plans He purposes.

Both men have realized their need to be saved and there is only one way that can happen, if the rescuer hauls him into the boat.

As I said before God never refuses any who truly desire to be saved. He never turned any away who came to Him begging mercy. Nor does He drag any kicking and screaming against their will. He makes them willing. He gives them life and a new heart that desires Him and see in Him the wonder and beauty of His saving grace in Christ.

What of two men sitting on a peaceful, sunny beach, just chillin'. Neither one realizes that they are in grave danger. Along comes a stranger who tells them that he just heard that there is a tsunami coming their way and if they will follow him, he will take them to a safe place. One man thanks him and is anxious to go with him. The other man looks at the calm ocean waters, the sunny sky, smiles at the man and say thanks but I think I'll be just fine here where I am. What caused the first man to believe the warning but not the second man?

Good question.

 

[Hank77]

Are you going to claim that your use of Rev. 3:20 is legitimate?

Are you saying that this verse is not about repentance? Are you saying that the Lord only knocks on the door of those in the church who need to repent? Or would the same apply to any sinner, inside or outside the church? Are you saying that God does not love the ones outside the church who also need a Redeemer?
Please explain.

Rev 3:19 `As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform;
Rev 3:20 lo, I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Rev 3:22 He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies.'

The Jews have a saying.....
Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol. 25, 1: “God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass.”
Sohar Levit, fol. 8, col. 32, it is said: “If a man conceal his sin, and do not open it before the holy King, although he ask mercy, yet the door of repentance shall not be opened to him. But if he open it before the holy blessed God, God spares him, and mercy prevails over wrath; and when he laments, although all the doors were shut, yet they shall be opened to him, and his prayer shall be heard.”

 

[miamited]

Hi twin,

You wrote:

As for a gift being refused it is impossible. It wouldn't be a gift if it could be. You can refuse an offer to be sure. Certainly you can do whatever you want with the gift once it has been given, made yours by the giver, but only an absolutely insane idiot would not use the gift once they have been made aware of their need for it and its beauty. Your rebuttal is without merit.

That honestly makes no sense at all. It happens in many families at Christmas. Someone receives a gift from someone that they don't care for and they simply refuse to open or acknowledge the gift. It's still a gift. The giver gave it with no strings attached of any kind, but the recipient refused to accept the gift.

That's exactly what God has done. He has given mankind a gift, but speaking of someone being an idiot, one would have to be a complete one to not see that people refuse the gift of God's salvation every day.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[twin1954]

Hi twin,

You wrote:


That honestly makes no sense at all. It happens in many families at Christmas. Someone receives a gift from someone that they don't care for and they simply refuse to open or acknowledge the gift. It's still a gift. The giver gave it with no strings attached of any kind, but the recipient refused to accept the gift.

That's exactly what God has done. He has given mankind a gift, but speaking of someone being an idiot, one would have to be a complete one to not see that people refuse the gift of God's salvation every day.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Yes unbelief is insanity as I have said. As for the gift being refused it is possible for them to refuse to open the gift because it is theirs to do with as they wish. They have the right to do with it what they desire only because the gift was given and it is the possession of the receiver as their property because the giver made it theirs when he gave it to them.

So does the Scripture bear out the fact that God gives this gift to all men? Of course it doesn't. Moreover they bear out the fact that those who refuse to be saved do so because they do not believe that they need to be. They would rather continue in the sin and unbelief.

But what you miss is that those who are saved and those who aren't are no different in themselves. We all deserve to be damned forever by God. What makes the difference isn't us but God.

Salvation isn't a thing that you get when you believe it is a Person that you are united to.

 

[miamited]

Hi twin,

Well, it isn't the conviction the Spirit has given me in reading the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ Ted

 

[twin1954]

Are you saying that this verse is not about repentance? Are you saying that the Lord only knocks on the door of those in the church who need to repent? Or would the same apply to any sinner, inside or outside the church? Are you saying that God does not love the ones outside the church who also need a Redeemer?
Please explain.

What I am saying is that the passage has a context and its meaning is derived from that context. The Lord is not speaking to all men He is speaking to a congregation that are supposed to be believers. In that context to use it as though He is speaking to all men is to rip it out and apply it to whomever you want. That just isn't proper hermeneutics or a legitimate use of the Scriptures.

As for those whom God loves outside the church there is no such thing. God's love is in Christ alone and His wondrous love can only be known in Christ alone. The Scriptures are very clear that it isn't the love of God but the wrath of God that abides on the unbeliever. He tells us that He hates all workers of iniquity, which is anyone outside of Christ.

What good is His love for all those whom He sends to Hell? That kind of love is worthless and makes God the object of pity more than of worship. That kind of love is powerless and pointless. It reduces the love of God to a mere emotion just like a man has.

Rev 3:19 `As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform;
Rev 3:20 lo, I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Rev 3:22 He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies.'

See the last six words in the passage you quote. They are very important in determining who the Lord is speaking to.

The Jews have a saying.....
Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol. 25, 1: “God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass.”
Sohar Levit, fol. 8, col. 32, it is said: “If a man conceal his sin, and do not open it before the holy King, although he ask mercy, yet the door of repentance shall not be opened to him. But if he open it before the holy blessed God, God spares him, and mercy prevails over wrath; and when he laments, although all the doors were shut, yet they shall be opened to him, and his prayer shall be heard.”

The Jews have many sayings that are false.