Eph 1:4 exegeted

[mercy1061]

How about this: please refute my 8 points and conclusion from Rom 11:29. If it can be done.

Until you understand that obedience or repentance is required for forgiveness, it is very difficult discussing with you. Do you agree with Moses, Yeshua or John the Baptist? How will you possess or inherit the "place of blessing" with disobedience?

Well, it's either one or the other. Unless there is a 3rd as yet unmentioned view.

Why are trying to fit G-d into your little box?

It does not have to be either or. G-d can simply say he never knew you (worker of iniquity), although you claim to know him! You have to allow G-d to speak for himself, don't speak for him, that is highly offensive to me. In other words, you can tell me all day that you know someone, but until that someone tells me that he knows you, you are like the big bad wolfe trying the blow down the little piggie's house down made of brick and mortar.

Is 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

It is that simple, all you can do is; stand on his Word, his Word says NOWHERE, "once saved always saved" or "once saved NOT always saved". However torah practice teaches me that "once circumcised on the 8th day always circumcised". Will you also reject circumcision on the 8th day?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You completely missed what I said. My guess, though, was it was intentional since you didn't even try to address it, but rather just restated your view.

Actually, I noted how much your post missed completely what I had said, and tried to pin something to my view that was erroneous. But I'm used to that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Until you understand that obedience or repentance is required for forgiveness, it is very difficult discussing with you. Do you agree with Moses, Yeshua or John the Baptist? How will you possess or inherit the "place of blessing" with disobedience?

Where have I ever said anything about being disobedient. And as for forgiveness, please consider:

Acts 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

 

[mercy1061]

Where have I ever said anything about being disobedient. And as for forgiveness, please consider:

Acts 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Please consider;

Luke 24
47 and in his name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to people from all nations, starting with Yerushalayim.

 

[EmSw]

es believes that one is saved, or has eternal life, by a combination of faith plus works. But it's interesting to note your taking his side, though his grasp of the whole counsel of God is quite lacking.

In Matthew 25, what were the reasons Jesus gave to those on His right that they should inherit the kingdom? Shall I list them? Did they believe? Of course they believed, but that was not the only criteria for entering the kingdom.

There was something Jesus said more important than just believing. That was works of love, or charity. Nothing was said of the works of the law, that wasn't even in consideration. Charity towards the neighbor was the only thing Jesus mentioned.

This is fulfilling the second commandment, 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself'. The righteous (those who do good) obeyed this commandment, went into eternal life.

James said a faith without works of charity is dead.

James 2 -
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James isn't talking about the works of the Mosaic law, but works of the Royal law, which is, to love your neighbor as yourself.

He's done nothing to exegete the verses I've provided to refute my understanding of them. Jesus was clear about what He was providing:

John 10:10
“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

'Abundantly' modifies the life just mentioned, not something in addition to it, or something in the future.

I wonder if either of you have a grasp on what it means to have life abundantly. Not only "have life", but to "have it abundantly", as Jesus noted the distinction.

Why wouldn't we? Do you think we are dotes who cannot understand what abundant life is? Besides, it is not a distinction, but rather a modifier.

 

[EmSw]

Where have I ever said anything about being disobedient. And as for forgiveness, please consider:

Acts 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

So, do you believe in keeping or obeying the commandments in order to enter life? Or, can a man disobey them and still enter life?

 

[Hammster]

Actually, I noted how much your post missed completely what I had said, and tried to pin something to my view that was erroneous. But I'm used to that.

Since I didn't address your view, it's obvious that you missed the point. I did, however, address your faulty methodology.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don’t intend to compare scripture with scripture concerning grace vs. works.

I do hope though that those stressing the importance of repentance and obedience in the preaching of Moses, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ will be sure to note that those people were O.T. prophets. They preached obedience to the law. Even Jesus taught that He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it.

Jesus rather interestingly placing His emphasis on the spirit of the law rather than the letter got Him crucified. After He had kept the law and laid down His life He provided salvation for those who could not keep the law enough to get saved.

This is all rather basic of course. But it seems to be missed by some here.
You seem to be mixing the O.T. message – the bridge message of the Messiah – and the N.T. message of Christ’s provision into a pile of proof texts to be argued. You seem to be missing the fulfillment of the law through faith in Christ’s keeping the law that the N.T. teaches.

Repentance and Christ’s Lordship form a big part of our faith in Christ. But if you are counting on keeping the law to get you saved or keep you saved you are barking up the wrong tree. That is true for keeping the Laws of Moses and it is true for keeping the laws of God written in our conscience.
By keeping the law no flesh will be justified before Him. That’s why His keeping the law for us is so wonderful. But if you trample that good news under foot you have fallen from grace and His righteousness will be of no use to you in the end.

I try to obey God too. But the difference between me and some here is that I try to obey Him because of what He has done for me. That’s a foolish difference to some I suppose. But I consider it the nuts and bolts of the salvation message.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please consider;

Luke 24
47 and in his name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to people from all nations, starting with Yerushalayim.

What is this: trying to pit Scripture against Scripture??

And my question was ignored.

 

[FreeGrace2]

'Abundantly' modifies the life just mentioned, not something in addition to it, or something in the future.

Do you think we are dotes who cannot understand what abundant life is? Besides, it is not a distinction, but rather a modifier.

No, Jesus distinguished between having life and having it abundantly.

Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Your view pits Scripture against Scripture. My view explains Scripture.

When Jesus spoke of eternal life which is based on works, He was referring to the rewards that He will bring with Him.

When Jesus spoke of eternal life which is based on faith, He was referring to salvation.

The view of faith plus works negates the entire meaning of grace. Iow, it is graceless. I reject that view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, do you believe in keeping or obeying the commandments in order to enter life? Or, can a man disobey them and still enter life?

The commandment to believe the gospel is what qualifies one to enter life.

 

[mercy1061]

What is this: trying to pit Scripture against Scripture??

And my question was ignored.

Can you explain Luke 24:47?

Luke 24
47 and in his name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to people from all nations, starting with Yerushalayim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can you explain Luke 24:47?

Luke 24
47 and in his name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to people from all nations, starting with Yerushalayim.

Yes, I'd be happy to.

The word "repentance" is metanoia
Thayer Definition:
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

The change of mind refers to recognizing that Jesus IS the Messiah, the Son of God. Which leads to trust in Him for salvation. The result of this repentance is forgiveness of sins. Same principles as Acts 10:43.

 

[mercy1061]

Yes, I'd be happy to.

The word "repentance" is metanoia
Thayer Definition:
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

The change of mind refers to recognizing that Jesus IS the Messiah, the Son of God. Which leads to trust in Him for salvation. The result of this repentance is forgiveness of sins. Same principles as Acts 10:43.

Does one have to repent from committing sin in order to be forgive for sin?

 

[Hentenza]

Does one have to repent from committing sin in order to be forgive for sin?

Do you remember every sin you committed today?

BTW- Are you not braking the Sabbath by posting here on the Sabbath?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Does one have to repent from committing sin in order to be forgive for sin?

No. The believer has to confess their sin in order to be forgiven the sin.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Jack Terrence]

No. The believer has to confess their sin in order to be forgiven the sin.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John was NOT saying that as a believer. He was saying it as a Jew. His entire audience was Jewish, and he was telling them how to acquire the forgiveness of sins, that is salvation. John does not address believers specifically until chapter two. The apostles NEVER assumed that all in their audience were believers.

You have imbibed yourself in many erroneous presuppositions.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, I'd be happy to.

The word "repentance" is metanoia
Thayer Definition:
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

The change of mind refers to recognizing that Jesus IS the Messiah, the Son of God. Which leads to trust in Him for salvation. The result of this repentance is forgiveness of sins. Same principles as Acts 10:43.

No it's not! You will not find, 'repent, recognizing Me as the Messiah'. How do you make this stuff up? Why do you make this stuff up?

I know you have difficulty reading definitions, but repent is a change of mind of a purpose one has formed, or of something one has done (sin).

Just to show how silly your definition is, let's substitute your definition for repent in a some verses.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should recognize Jesus is the Messiah;

Job 42:6
Therefore I retract, and I recognize Jesus is the Messiah in dust and ashes.

Jeremiah 5:3 O Lord, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them, but they did not weaken; You have consumed them, but they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; they have refused to recognize Jesus is the Messiah.

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may recognize Jesus is the Messiah of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who recognizes I am the Messiah than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no recognition that I am the Messiah.

Luke 16:30
But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will recognize Jesus is the Messiah!

Luke 17:3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he recognizes I am the Messiah, forgive him.

Acts 8:22 Therefore recognize Jesus is the Messiah of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

Revelation 2:21 I gave her time to recognize I am the Messiah, and she does not want to recognize I am the Messiah of her immorality.

Revelation 9:21 and they did not recognize Jesus is the Messiah of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

By the way, FG2, I noticed you didn't have anything to say in the thread 'Some Jews Who Believed in Jesus' (http://www.christianforums.com/t7833009/#post66011825). I would love to hear your take on those who believed in Jesus, yet Jesus said their father was the devil. I'll be waiting.

 

[mercy1061]

Do you remember every sin you committed today?

BTW- Are you not braking the Sabbath by posting here on the Sabbath?

Why do I need to remember sin, if I have repented? You only need to remember sin in order for you to confess sin; confession then repentance. If you have not repented, you will remember sin, you will continue to confess sin. This is why sacrifices were done annually. If you actually honored torah, you would know this, but since you do not honor torah, I guess I should expect you not to know this already. I doubt the ancient jewish people confessed typing on the computer on the Sabbath.

Regarding the Sabbath, you do not honor the Sabbath, so I refuse to allow someone who dishonors Sabbath to instruct me to how to obey the Sabbath.

"Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath?"

 

[mercy1061]

No. The believer has to confess their sin in order to be forgiven the sin.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confessions occurs before repentance. The people confessed their sins to John, then John baptized them unto repentance. If you only confess your sins, then you agree that you have not repented! Your confessions reminds you of your sin. Why not repent, so you can forget your sins? You will no longer have to confess sin that you have repented from.