Eph 1:4 exegeted

[extraordinary]

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely;
and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Hey, thanks for the verse!

Will everyone please notice that Paul is praying that this will happen.

Will everyone please notice that Paul is NOT saying that this WILL happen.

Which is a shame because their salvation depends on it happening!
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see you have no answer.

I see that you haven't understand what I said.

It does nothing of the sort; it plainly refers to those who obey Him. With this passage included with your pet scriptures, we see it is those who believe and obey Him who are saved.

OK, so you think that it is a combination of faith plus works that save.

Paul refutes that idea cold:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If that's not clear enough, he also said this:
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Your view parallels that of the RCC.

But at least get the definition of hope correct.

'Wait' is the meaning of 'Hope'. I am sure everyone else reading this agrees.

I don't take a vote to see what "everyone else" thinks. I consult the experts, which wrote the lexicons. Also, the claim that the meaning of 'hope' is 'wait" is worse than silly.

How long will you keep trying to fool us? 'Confident' is an adjective; it modifies 'expectation' which is the meaning of hope.

First the claim that hope means "wait". Now hope means "expectation". Silly.

Whether one knows or cares or not, Biblical "hope" is FULL CONFIDENCE, as I've shown from a Greek lexicon.

I'll summarize, then tune out your posts: Paul refutes your faith plus works idea twice: Rom 4:5 and Eph 2:8.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Actually, whether one holds to pre or post-trib rapture, all believers WILL be alive at His coming. So there was nothing special about what Paul told them.

You totally missed it! Paul said that the Thessalonians would NOT DIE, but remain ALIVE unto the Lord's coming.

J. Stuart Russell:

If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.

Death is the dissolution of the union between the body, soul, and spirit, and the apostle's prayer is that spirit, soul, and body might 'all together' [oloklhron] be preserved in sanctity till the Lord's coming. This implies the continuance of their corporeal life until that event (THE PAROUSIA, J. Stuart Russell, Baker Book House, page 170)

Paul said, "Faithful is he that called you who also will do it" (vs. 24).This means that they did NOT DIE, but remained ALIVE unto the Lord's coming.

Paul repeated this in his second epistle to them. He promised them that the Lord would return from heaven to give them rest from their persecutions. He said that their rest would come "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (2 Thess. 1:3-8). But Jesus did NOT make this promise to the saints at Smyrna. They were told to be faithful "until death." They were NOT promised that Jesus would deliver them from their persecutions at His return. Some of them may have been alive when Jesus returned, but it was not promised them like it was promised to the Thessalonians.

The Thessalonians had special dispensation because of the intense persecution they suffered, and for holding fast in their love through their sufferings. Your "one size fits all" view of Paul's epistles is thoroughly unbiblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Thessalonians had special dispensation because of the intense persecution they suffered, and for holding fast in their love through their sufferings. Your "one size fits all" view of Paul's epistles is thoroughly unbiblical.

Actually, your "special dispensation is totally unbiblical. There have been many many believers through the ages who underwent intense sufferings, and died physically.

Yet, your view is that those believers from Thessalonica would live over 2,000 years. So, where are they now as they wait for the Lord's return?

Or do you believe that the Lord's return has already occurred?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Actually, your "special dispensation is totally unbiblical. There have been many many believers through the ages who underwent intense sufferings, and died physically.

But the Thessalonians were promised that THEY would not die. Therefore, THEY had special dispensation.

Yet, your view is that those believers from Thessalonica would live over 2,000 years. So, where are they now as they wait for the Lord's return?

The Lord returned in THEIR lifetime. You're not paying attention.

Or do you believe that the Lord's return has already occurred?

Yes! Paul told the Thessalonians that THEY would receive rest from THEIR persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (2 Thess. 1:3-8). This promise was made to no others but THEM. Therefore, THEY had special dispensation.

If the Lord did not return from heaven to give THEM rest from THEIR persecutions, then Paul was a false prophet. And if Paul was a false prophet, then he may have been wrong when he said, "Whether we are awake or sleep we shall live together with Him."

 

[nobdysfool]

Yeowsir, just goin' by what the translators came up with!
Can't we trust those guys for anything?
Wonder what the new-fangled versions say!
Can't anyone fix mistakes, if there are any?
Hey, I know for shore that the NKJV fixed some KJV stuff.
.

You missed my point. The English words used in the KJV don't always mean exactly the same as we use those same words now. Language undergoes change, changes in meaning, in usage, and in intent. if you bring a 21st century understanding of English to a 16th century translation into English, you will miss some meaning, and draw wrong meanings from some passages because the words used in those passages have different meanings than their modern-day equivalents. Even some of your favorite go-to verses for your Pharisaical doctrines.

 

[EmSw]

I see that you haven't understand what I said.

You still can't answer the order of inheriting, receiving, and entering the kingdom.

OK, so you think that it is a combination of faith plus works that save.

Paul refutes that idea cold:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If that's not clear enough, he also said this:
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Jesus and James refute your view.

Your view parallels that of the RCC.

"If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments." - the truth spoken by the Savior Himself to believers and to those who delight in obedience, those who desire life and salvation through Him.

I don't take a vote to see what "everyone else" thinks. I consult the experts, which wrote the lexicons. Also, the claim that the meaning of 'hope' is 'wait" is worse than silly.

Uh, the experts wrote that to hope is to wait. Here are YOUR words -

I explained it thoroughly. Scriptural "hope" IS confidence. The word in Heb 11:1 is: elpizō

1) to hope
1a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

First the claim that hope means "wait". Now hope means "expectation". Silly.

Why are you being so difficult. Here is Strong's Concordance definition of hope -

1. expectation of evil, fear
2. expectation of good, hope
   1. in the Christian sense
      1. joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

(Greek Lexicon :: G1680 (KJV))

I'm afraid you are stuck in a corner FG2, and will try anything to defend yourself and your views.

Whether one knows or cares or not, Biblical "hope" is FULL CONFIDENCE, as I've shown from a Greek lexicon.

Maybe you should learn how to read a lexicon. Maybe you should learn about a subject and all its modifiers. Confident modifies expectation. Expectation is the meaning of hope.

You have been caught trying to deceive us.

I'll summarize, then tune out your posts: Paul refutes your faith plus works idea twice: Rom 4:5 and Eph 2:8.

[/quote]

I would run also. Now that everyone knows you are trying to deceive us, you better go far off into the hills and hide.

 

[extraordinary]

You missed my point. The English words used in the KJV don't always mean exactly the same as we use those same words now. Language undergoes change, changes in meaning, in usage, and in intent. if you bring a 21st century understanding of English to a 16th century translation into English, you will miss some meaning, and draw wrong meanings from some passages because the words used in those passages have different meanings than their modern-day equivalents. Even some of your favorite go-to verses for your Pharisaical doctrines.

You missed my point.

IMO, it has nothing to do with the KJV.
It has to do with the translators.
Da Greek words are there!
Da translators are supposed to translate into understandable English.

Da KJV boys did a great job in their language.
Today's boys need to do ditto in ours.

Hey boy, why don't you and I translate the NT properly?
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But the Thessalonians were promised that THEY would not die. Therefore, THEY had special dispensation.

So, where are these special ones living now, waiting until the Lord's Day?

The Lord returned in THEIR lifetime. You're not paying attention.

Well, I do know Scripture. There was a FIRST advent, when Jesus was born and lived about 33 years, and died on a cross. And there will be a SECOND advent when the Lord returns to end the Tribulation and set up His Millennial Reign on earth.

So, where does one find this "fact" that Jesus returned during their lifetime?

Yes! Paul told the Thessalonians that THEY would receive rest from THEIR persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (2 Thess. 1:3-8). This promise was made to no others but THEM. Therefore, THEY had special dispensation.

This is worse than nuts. Paul was specifically describing the SECOND advent.

Oh, I see. Your view is one of those amillenialists.

So, since you've claimed that the Lord did return in their lifetime, what did He do when He arrived? You know, with all His mighty angels, and all.

And why hasn't history recorded such a magnificent event?

If the Lord did not return from heaven to give THEM rest from THEIR persecutions, then Paul was a false prophet. And if Paul was a false prophet, then he may have been wrong when he said, "Whether we are awake or sleep we shall live together with Him."

First, Paul was never wrong when writing inspired Scripture. Second, as Jesus told the Sadducees about the resurrection, "you're sadly mistaken" about there not being a literal 1,000 year reign with Christ on the throne on earth, ruling with an iron scepter.

Your claim must have some evidence that Christ returned to those "special ones". So, where is it?

 

[nobdysfool]

You missed my point.

IMO, it has nothing to do with the KJV.
It has to do with the translators.
Da Greek words are there!
Da translators are supposed to translate into understandable English.

Da KJV boys did a great job in their language.
Today's boys need to do ditto in ours.

Hey boy, why don't you and I translate the NT properly?
.

First off, I ain't a boy, so don't refer to me as such. I'm probably old enough to be your father, or at the very least, your older (and wiser) brother. Respect begets respect.

Secondly, the English words change meaning over the years. Where we see in English, Paul saying "might", it isn't referring to a possibility. Old English usage of might was more along the line of "will". It was definite,l not as a possibility, but as a fact. if you knew anything about Old English, you would know that. I know it. Why don't you?

Maybe you think this is all a big joke, but I don't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You still can't answer the order of inheriting, receiving, and entering the kingdom.

Continuing to misunderstand me. I am NOT interesting in answering any of your questions until you deal with my point.

I said this:
OK, so you think that it is a combination of faith plus works that save.

Paul refutes that idea cold:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If that's not clear enough, he also said this:
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
And your response:
"Jesus and James refute your view."
My view was what Paul wrote. So you're pitting Paul against Jesus and James, huh? Not advisable. Those 2 verses refute your faith plus works view, period.

And it's obvious that you've misunderstood James as well as Jesus.

I'm afraid you are stuck in a corner FG2, and will try anything to defend yourself and your views.

The one who should be afraid is the one who holds to your views of faith plus works for salvation. Very worried.

You have been caught trying to deceive us.

Your empty charges are tiresome.

Heb 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

"hoped for" - elpizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to hope
1a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

It clearly DOES NOT mean simply to wait. Duh. The key is FULL CONFIDENCE.

 

[EmSw]

Continuing to misunderstand me. I am NOT interesting in answering any of your questions until you deal with my point.

I said this:
OK, so you think that it is a combination of faith plus works that save.

Paul refutes that idea cold:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If that's not clear enough, he also said this:
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
And your response:
"Jesus and James refute your view."
My view was what Paul wrote. So you're pitting Paul against Jesus and James, huh? Not advisable. Those 2 verses refute your faith plus works view, period.

And it's obvious that you've misunderstood James as well as Jesus.

FG2, if you wish to enter life, keep My commandments.
But if you do not obey Me, you will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on you.
- Jesus

The one who should be afraid is the one who holds to your views of faith plus works for salvation. Very worried.

FG2, if you wish to enter life, keep My commandments.
But if you do not obey Me, you will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on you.
- Jesus

Your empty charges are tiresome.

Heb 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

"hoped for" - elpizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to hope
1a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

It clearly DOES NOT mean simply to wait. Duh. The key is FULL CONFIDENCE.

Elpizo is a verb; you are trying your hardest to make it a noun.

I also see prepositional phrases give you trouble.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG2, if you wish to enter life, keep My commandments.
But if you do not obey Me, you will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on you.
- Jesus



FG2, if you wish to enter life, keep My commandments.
But if you do not obey Me, you will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on you.
- Jesus



Elpizo is a verb; you are trying your hardest to make it a noun.

I also see prepositional phrases give you trouble.

I also see that your view is completely unbiblical.

Consider this about one who places their faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life:

1. they become children of God. Jn 1:12
2. they are forgiven. Acts 10:43
3. they are justified. Rom 5:1
4. they are born again. 1 Jn 5:1
5. they are regenerated. Titus 3:5
6. they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:11
7. they are given eternal life. Jn 3:15,16,5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27
8. eternal life is a free gift. Rom 6:23

And God's gifts and calling are IRREVOCABLE. Rom 11:29.

Shame on anyone who claims that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, returned.

To claim that those who have received #1-8 can end up in the lake of fire is unconscionable.

The Holy Spirit resides in every believer. And God cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13.

 

[extraordinary]

Maybe you think this is all a big joke, but I don't.

What's so hilarious iz that you keep avoiding all of my valid points!
Chow, if you know what that means ...

 

[extraordinary]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is credited as righteousness

I've explained a trillion times already ... this refers ONLY to the moment of being born-again!
It is NOT guaranteed to last forever ... that depends on your co-operation in the salvation process!

Da baby blue gets one through da narrow gate ... onto da narrow path of tryin' to be an OVERCOMER!
The same way that Jesus also was an OVERCOMER (Rev 3:21)!

Just reminding everybody!
.

 

[nobdysfool]

What's so hilarious iz that you keep avoiding all of my valid points!

Oh? What points would those be? And, just for the record, you have done exactly what you accuse me of, ignoring points. You ignore all that I said in my last post to you, but the very last line. Pot.Kettle.Black

Chow, if you know what that means ...

Well, I can see that I DO know that one far better than you. The word is not 'Chow', it's 'Ciao'. It's italian, and it can mean either 'Hello' or 'Goodbye'. You are clearly demonstrating that language is not your strong suit, especially with all the slang and street talk you are trying to inject.

'It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt.'

 

[extraordinary]

Secondly, the English words change meaning over the years. Where we see in English, Paul saying "might", it isn't referring to a possibility. Old English usage of might was more along the line of "will". It was definite,l not as a possibility, but as a fact. if you knew anything about Old English, you would know that. I know it. Why don't you?

Here are the valid points that I responded with ...

IMO, it has nothing to do with the KJV.
It has to do with the translators.
Da Greek words are there!
Da translators are supposed to translate into understandable English.

Da KJV boys did a great job in their language.
Today's boys need to do ditto in ours.

So why don't you answer them instead of mud-slinging?
.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here are the valid points that I responded with ...

IMO, it has nothing to do with the KJV.
It has to do with the translators.
Da Greek words are there!
Da translators are supposed to translate into understandable English.

Da KJV boys did a great job in their language.
Today's boys need to do ditto in ours.

So why don't you answer them instead of mud-slinging?
.

Because you're not answering my points. You're dodging them. And let's grow up a little. 'Da' is not a word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've explained a trillion times already ... this refers ONLY to the moment of being born-again!

Your opinion is noted.

It is NOT guaranteed to last forever ... that depends on your co-operation in the salvation process!

Wrong again. God's plan is NOT faith plus works. If that were so, faith would be immaterial and so would grace. And again, contra your opinion, Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 refute your opinion.

Da baby blue gets one through da narrow gate ... onto da narrow path of tryin' to be an OVERCOMER!
The same way that Jesus also was an OVERCOMER (Rev 3:21)!

Now yer just trying to change the goal posts. Rev 2-3 is about reward IN heaven, not getting INTO heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh? What points would those be? And, just for the record, you have done exactly what you accuse me of, ignoring points. You ignore all that I said in my last post to you, but the very last line. Pot.Kettle.Black
Well, I can see that I DO know that one far better than you. The word is not 'Chow', it's 'Ciao'. It's italian, and it can mean either 'Hello' or 'Goodbye'. You are clearly demonstrating that language is not your strong suit, especially with all the slang and street talk you are trying to inject.

Maybe he meant "food". For that is what it is.