jckstraw72
Doin' that whole Orthodox thing
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What I want to know is why God didn't just hand Moses a manual inscribed with F = ma, Ke = 1/2mv^2, v^2/2 + gz + p/r = constant, etc.
Oh, Ok. Imo, that's good to know.I do think we need to shift to finding a consensus here on Church authority, and if we can't obtain that, this is all a waste of time.
But just to you I'll say I think they find mutations and effects of disease and disorders, I think they find incomplete evidence (skeletons and so on) which they fill in with projections, I think that everything now taken as gospel truth about "Lucy", "Cro-Magnon Man", etc, will be shown to be wild misunderstanding based on very reasonable - but wrong - assumptions.
Ok, this is to add to this and in response to Matt's response to me on the clothing in the Garden that I said I saw something on in the book Animals and Man. Here's what I read:and Matt is correct - the Fathers see various layers to the "coats of skin" - of course they were literally clothed in coats of animal skin, but it also means that man took on heavier, denser flesh - our bodies changed. now we are susceptible to sickness and pain, we are subject to the elements, we need food to live, we void waste, etc -- none of these things were true before the Fall.
I'm certainly no expert on either side. In fact, I practically know nothing on the science side, other than the basic info through what I learned ages ago in school and some more current things through homeschooling my sons. My feelings and thoughts are simply how I see things. It is usual for me to tend to agree with what the CF's have said and unanimously agreed upon, even if it's not in the form of an EC and isn't dogma, over other people's opinions, so I can understand and see those speaking on the theology side. Doesn't mean I'm right. It's just what I think and believe.Originally Posted by jckstraw72
And there in is the problem, half of you are talking science and the other half are talking theology, and some of you don't get theology while others of you don't get science, and none of you are talking to the the each other, so all of you are chasing your tail! Fascinating a conversation where one side isn't really talking to the other but only themselves lasted this long.
As you were.
I agree, and it says in the Scriptures that spiritual wisdom is much more superior than earthly wisdom.and again, the creation of the world is one of the spiritual visions that Saints receive, as Sts. Isaac the Syrian and Gregory of Sinai, among others, have taught.
What I want to know is why God didn't just hand Moses a manual inscribed with F = ma, Ke = 1/2mv^2, v^2/2 + gz + p/r = constant, etc.
Neither does whether one believes in evolutionary or cosmological theories or not. So why are we discussing all this?
Dot sweetie, you have not actually tried to teach theology or science in any of your posts, so you'd hardly be the one I'm referring to. You have only asked questions and shared things you've read, some thoughts/ ideas that your son has come up with that made you think. Which btw, I love the fact your son is thinking deeply about these things and trying to figure them out.
St. Ambrose, St. Bede, St. Ephriam are a few that I can think of just off the top of my head.Another question has popped into my mind. Are there other Saints who have spoken on the literal 24-hour day, or just St. Basil?
St. Ambrose of Milan, Hexameron 1:37
In notable fashion has Scripture spoken of a “day,” not the “first day.” Because a second, then a third, day, and finally the remaining days were to follow, a “first day” could have been mentioned, following in this way the natural order. But Scripture established a law that twenty-four hours, including both day and night, should be given the name of day only, as if one were to say the length of one day is twenty-four hours in extent.
notice also that the bolded part is completely incompatible with evolutionSt. Athanasius, Against the Arians 2.19
And all the visible creation was made in six days:—in the first, the light which He called day; in the second the firmament; in the third, gathering together the waters, He bared the dry land, and brought out the various fruits that are in it; and in the fourth, He made the sun and the moon and all the host of the stars; and on the fifth, He created the race of living things in the sea, and of birds in the air; and on the sixth, He made the quadrupeds on the earth, and at length man. And ‘the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; and neither the light is as the night, nor the sun as the moon; nor the irrational as rational man; nor the Angels as the Thrones, nor the Thrones as the Authorities, yet they are all creatures, but each of the things made according to its kind exists and remains in its own essence, as it was made.
Venerable Bede, On Genesis (Translated Texts for Historians vol. 48, trans. By Calvin B. Kendall, Liverpool University Press, 2008), p. 75
And there was evening, with the light gradually setting after the completed period of the length of the day and passing beneath the lower parts of the world, which now regularly happens at night with the familiar circuit of the sun. And there was morning, with the same light gradually returning above the earth and beginning another day. At this point one day was completed – without doubt a day of twenty-four hours.
Clement of Alexadria, The Stromata 4.25 Whence He commands them not to touch dead bodies, or approach the dead; not that the body was polluted, but that sin and disobedience were incarnate, and embodied, and dead, and therefore abominable. It was only, then, when a father and mother, a son and daughter died, that the priest was allowed to enter, because these were related only by flesh and seed, to whom the priest was indebted for the immediate cause of his entrance into life. And they purify themselves seven days, the period in which Creation was consummated. For on the seventh day the rest is celebrated; and on the eighth he brings a propitiation, as is written in Ezekiel, according to which propitiation the promise is to be received.
St. Dimitri of Rostov, Rostvsky Demetrius, St.. Chronicle. Moscow, 1998, pp. 11-12, in “On the Question of Evolutionism,” by Fr. Constantine Bufeyev, at К вопроÑу о «правоÑлавном Ñволюционизме»
When seeing the light in the darkness bezdennoy, God divided the light and the darkness and called the light Day, and the darkness - at night, and it was the first day that we call the week (Sunday), and the first month, subsequently named Martha, and the first of this month ... On the second day, we call today Monday, made ​​the all-powerful His word the heavens from the waters of the abyss ... On the third day, we call Tuesday, collecting water in a single place, he hath both land and named it the land, and built it capable to grow the seeds and every plant and grow trees. On the fourth day, which we call the environment created in the sky two great lights - the sun and the moon and the stars. On the fifth day, called us Thursday and made ​​fish and aquatic reptile and produced in birds. sixth corresponding to our Friday, He created animals, cattle, and creeping thing of the earth after his kind: and after all the creatures created Adam and Eve, and brought them into paradise. On the seventh day God rested from all his work, and was named the day this Saturday, it is quiet, because he rested in the day Creator of all his work and made ​​it holy, as is written in the book of Genesis in Chapter II.
St. Ephraim of Syria, Commentary on Genesis 1, pg. 282
No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and the earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names.
Pg. 287
Although both the light and the clouds were created in the twinkling of an eye, still both the day and the night of the First Day continued for twelve hours each.
St. Gregory the Theologian, Homily 44, “On the New Week, Spring, and the Commemoration of the Martyr Mamas,”5
Just as the creation begins with Sunday (and this is evident from the fact that the seventh day after it is Saturday, because it is the day of repose from works) so also the second creation begins again with the same day [i.e. the day of Resurrection].
St. Hippolytus of Rome, On Genesis
Gen. I. 5. And it was evening, and it was morning, one day.
Hippolytus. He did not say "night and day," but "one day," with reference to the name of the light. He did not say the "first day; "for if he had said the "first" day, he would also have had to say that the "second" day was made. But it was right to speak not of the "first day," but of "one day," in order that by saying "one," he might show that it returns on its orbit and, while it remains one, makes up the week.
St. Isidore of Seville, Chronicon, 1st Age of the World
1. God created everything in six days. On the first day he fashioned light; on the second, the firmament of heaven; on the third, the land and the sea; on the fourth, the stars; on the fifth, the fish and the birds; on the sixth, the animals and the beasts of burden and finally the first man, Adam, in his image.
6th Age of the World
121. 5,814 years have passed from the beginning of the world to the present era 654 [616 AD], that is, to the fifth year of the imperium of Heraclius and the fourth of the most glorious prince Sisebut.
Schema-Abbot John (Alekseyev), Elder of Valaam, Letters of the Valaam Elder Schema-Abbot John, 1996, pp. 86-87
An academy student and missionary said to me that by God’s creation in days one must understand millions of years. You poor missionary – you represent the omnipotent Creator as being very weak and attribute millions of years to Him. That’s how your reason speaks, but I believe that, as the Lord said, “And the evening and the morning were the first day,” one must understand days and not millions of years. For the Lord said, “And it was so.” With a word He divided the water from the land, and the water, with a noise, stood in its indicated places: there were seas, the rivers and streams began to flow, and across the whole earth there were warm waters and cold springs. The Lord said, “Let there be forests,” and there were forests across the whole earth in perfect form – one kind in the north, and another kind in the south – and then they began to gradually grow. So also the birds were created by God’s word: they immediately flew across the whole earth and were of various kinds; and all the rest of creation, as it is said in the Bible. The more I consider nature, the more I am amazed and come to know the omnipotence of the Creator.
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 3.10, as qtd. in The Christianity Reader, ed. Mary Gerhart and Fabian E. Udho, University of Chicago Press (2007), p. 34. so Sacred Scripture speaks in that way, showing considerateness for the limitations of our hearing when it said,” God saw that the light was good,” and added, “God separated light from darkness; he called the light day and he called the darkness night,” allotting to each its own particular area and establishing limits for each right from the beginning so that they could keep to them permanently without interference. Everyone in his right mind can understand this, how from that time till this the light has not surpassed its limits, nor has darkness exceeded its due order, resulting in confusion and disruption. Really, this fact alone should suffice to oblige people obdurate in their lack of response to come to faith and obedience to the words of Sacred Scripture so as to imitate the order in the elements, respecting as they do their course uninterruptedly, and not overstep their own limitations but rather recognize the extent of their own nature. 11. Then, when he had assigned to each its own name, he linked the two together in the words, “Evening came, and morning came: one day.” He made a point of speaking of the end of the day and the end of the night as one, so as to grasp a certain order and sequence in visible things and avoid any impression of confusion.
St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 2.7
In the beginning, then, that is to say on the first day, God created light, the ornament and glory of the whole visible creation. For take away light and all things remain in undistinguishable darkness, incapable of displaying their native beauty. And God called the light day, but the darkness He called night. Further, darkness is not any essence, but an accident: for it is simply absence of light. The air, indeed, has not light in its essence. It was, then, this very absence of light from the air that God called darkness: and it is not the essence of air that is darkness, but the absence of light which clearly is rather an accident than an essence. And, indeed, it was not night, but day, that was first named, so that day is first and after that comes night. Night, therefore, follows day. And from the beginning of day till the next day is one complete period of day and night. For the Scripture says, And the evening and the morning were one day
St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ (1971), Pg. 290-291
Why did not the Almighty create the world at once, but in six days? In order to teach man by deeds to perform his work gradually, not hurriedly, but with consideration. If you pray, pray without hurrying; if you read the Gospel, or, in general, any religious or worldly books, do not read them hurriedly, but read with consideration and with a true view of the material. If you are learning a lesson, do not hurry to finish it quickly, but penetrate into the subject deeply and consider it well. If you are doing work, do it without hurrying, with consideration quietly. Even the world was not created instantaneously but in six days. The Lord shows us an example in everything; let us follow His steps
St. Justin Martyr, 1st Apology, chapter 67
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.
St. Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus 3.18 And from the foundation of the world the whole time is thus traced, so far as its main epochs are concerned. From the creation of the world to the deluge were 2242 years. And from the deluge to the time when Abraham our forefather begat a son, 1036 years. And from Isaac, Abraham's son, to the time when the people dwelt with Moses in the desert, 660 years. And from the death of Moses and the rule of Joshua the son of Nun, to the death of the patriarch David, 498 years. And from the death of David and the reign of Solomon to the sojourning of the people in the land of Babylon, 518 years 6 months 10 days. And from the government of Cyrus to the death of the Emperor Aurelius Verus, 744 years. All the years from the creation of the world amount to a total of 5698 years, and the odd months and days.
Oh I beg to differ some of you on theology side have shown you do not understand science, just as some on the science side have shown they do not understand theology. I've read the thread and quite frankly some you of on both sides are way over your head when you try to venture into the other area. On the bright side all of that some in both camps think they understand and are experts in both areas.
I haven't seen any indication that anyone on here "doesn't get science"??
it's not that we on the theology side don't get the science - it's that we really do see the implications of forcing the science onto our Scriptures. it seems to me that most on the science side are not willing to look into this. truefiction realizes the problem and simply sides with the science. most of the others don't recognize the problem.
That's why TF's position can't be Orthodox, 3-bar cross or no. Everyone else can be honestly mistaken. All of us, standing in Liturgy, have goofy messed-up things in our heads. But we all have to confess that we believe in the one holy catholic apostolic Orthodox Church, even if the modern popular theories of science contradict it. And the one thing we may not do is treat our own individual voice as equal to the Church. I can only even begin to do so by accepting what the Church teaches. Only then may I speak with confidence and boldness. Confidence and boldness in contradicting the Church is foolishness, not wisdom.
As far as I am concerned there is no theological "dogma" as to where evolution stands in EO. Yes there is a tendency to literal interpretation if we look at consensus but we have no idea what the consensus would be if the above mentioned fathers lived in our times. Not all EOs are evolutionists or vise versa since we have Christians that do believe in evolution....or they would not be able to be both scientists and EO Christians... For most ( I would dare to say almost all) of doctors or researchers would have to "believe" in evolution to finish their studies at least. The simple truth is that even if they doubt evolution at least for practical reasons they would have to at least agree to it! Biology of what I understand from my daughter has changed the last couple of years and it is taught differently....because it seems that science is soooo progressing and new findings come to disaprove what was throught to be a standard.
I do not know science and will not claim I do but what I know is that with the new findings one is for sure that the relationship with theology changes too. NOT our dogma and our belief in Him; only how we relate science to Him. I do not think being an evolutionist would make one also an unbeliever. Still the link is missing as to how life came about and how man came about from the primate.... Still too many questions we cannot figure out... And that is where God comes in; man will never be able to find out what God only knows and can do.
As far as I am concerned there is no theological "dogma" as to where evolution stands in EO. Yes there is a tendency to literal interpretation if we look at consensus but we have no idea what the consensus would be if the above mentioned fathers lived in our times. Not all EOs are evolutionists or vise versa since we have Christians that do believe in evolution....or they would not be able to be both scientists and EO Christians... For most ( I would dare to say almost all) of doctors or researchers would have to "believe" in evolution to finish their studies at least. The simple truth is that even if they doubt evolution at least for practical reasons they would have to at least agree to it! Biology of what I understand from my daughter has changed the last couple of years and it is taught differently....because it seems that science is soooo progressing and new findings come to disaprove what was throught to be a standard.
I do not know science and will not claim I do but what I know is that with the new findings one is for sure that the relationship with theology changes too. NOT our dogma and our belief in Him; only how we relate science to Him. I do not think being an evolutionist would make one also an unbeliever. Still the link is missing as to how life came about and how man came about from the primate.... Still too many questions we cannot figure out... And that is where God comes in; man will never be able to find out what God only knows and can do.
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