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EO Arguments Against Sola Scriptura

Kristos

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Exactly. Then, there are also circumstances when--believe it or not RCs/EOs (individuals) do not possess a correct understanding of these doctrines themselves. For instance, I had a "cradle Catholic" tell me that the Real Presence was symbolic.

So, the fact that no two people do not describe something the same way, or even the fact that some people are just wrong does not negate truth or credibility of Orthodox or Catholic teachings (in the minds of those believers). It is the same way with Sola Scriptura. Some people are just not able to properly articulate it and some people just possess a distorted view of it. That does not negate or disprove the validity of it.

Has any other SS proponent came to this thread and disputed CJ's assertion? If no one has come out and disagreed why do you assume that there is no consensus on the matter? Are we all suppose to chime in and say, "Yeah! What CJ said . . ?)


Can you direct me to the post where you pointed out the discrepencies or fallacies with CJ's OP? I'd like to know what your objection is?

Are you intentionally not answering my questions?

Yes, the original poster used Cavin's definition which disagree with CJ. That is what I've been saying. The LCMS definition is part of CJs, but not in full because he apparently doesn't agree with all of it. Do you?

My comments on CJs post never got past the point of source and acceptance. Where did it come from and who agrees with it.

The strangest thing I encounter around here is people who claim a faith symbol, yet disagree with the faith it represents. I don't mean using their own language, I mean disagree.
 
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Yeznik

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1) I have clearly explained and provided examples, how Sola Scriptura produces incoherent and contrary results.

2) There isn’t a clear consensus, ie a Protestant Creed or Canon that all Protestant Churches agree on Sola Scriptura and the application of it. And providing personal or individual group definitions doesn’t somehow validate it or make it acceptable for everyone to use.

3) Personally, Sola Scriptura is not a stumbling block for me or any Orthodox because we don’t use it. But what is a stumbling block is using a praxis, system, formula, etc. that has over a 50% failure result in producing valid information. It’s like playing spiritual Russian Roulette which a bullet in every other chamber.

The question again is why use this methodology if it constantly produces confusion in Protestantism.

The answer I have heard is that some groups use is correctly and some groups don’t, but unfortunately both sides will state they are using it correctly and the other incorrectly.
 
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Kristos

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The answer I have heard is that some groups use is correctly and some groups don’t, but unfortunately both sides will state they are using it correctly and the other incorrectly.

And they will quote different scripture to "prove" their side:):):)
 
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racer

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IMO it's up to the Protestant to prove their views.
Um, I don't think so. Maybe when you hear a protestant make the same outrageous claims regarding infallibility and being the one TRUE church, you can insist that we prove it. However, until then, the burden of proof is on the EOs and the RCCs. That both make these claims, and thus we know (by their assertions alone) that they can't both be right.
 
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racer

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Are you intentionally not answering my questions?

Yes, the original poster used Cavin's definition which disagree with CJ. That is what I've been saying. The LCMS definition is part of CJs, but not in full because he apparently doesn't agree with all of it. Do you?

Well, what I found in this thread was where CJ posted the LCMS. And, I didn't see anything in it that I disagree with.
My comments on CJs post never got past the point of source and acceptance. Where did it come from and who agrees with it.
The point I'm getting at, that I am beginning to believe is being purposefully ignored is this: If there were 50 people who give 50 different explanations, this still would not discredit or negate Sola Scriptura. It only means that 50 people either understand it differently/incorrectly or simply do not articulate it accurately.
The strangest thing I encounter around here is people who claim a faith symbol, yet disagree with the faith it represents. I don't mean using their own language, I mean disagree.
So, what do you say about a woman, born and raised Catholic, who says the RCC is wrong about birth control? (She's an RN, btw) Does her incorrect or heretical belief regarding birth control negate the correctness or the RCC? Is she in a position to make such a declaration?

IOWs, does her misunderstanding/misrepresentation defeat the RCC's teaching on birth-control? Does her "personal" belief change anything? Should all non-RCs stand around and chew their nails going, "Oh, gee, who to believe?" Then, perhaps flip a coin? Or, should people realize and openly acknowledge that there is no avoiding "personal discernment/interpretaion?" We all employ it. There's no way around it. Some people simply delude themselves by asserting and believing they don't. A Catholic or Orthodox person is just as liable to be wrong as is any other Christian.
 
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Kristos

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Well, what I found in this thread was where CJ posted the LCMS. And, I didn't see anything in it that I disagree with.

The point I'm getting at, that I am beginning to believe is being purposefully ignored is this: If there were 50 people who give 50 different explanations, this still would not discredit or negate Sola Scriptura. It only means that 50 people either understand it differently/incorrectly or simply do not articulate it accurately.

So, what do you say about a woman, born and raised Catholic, who says the RCC is wrong about birth control? (She's an RN, btw) Does her incorrect or heretical belief regarding birth control negate the correctness or the RCC? Is she in a position to make such a declaration?

IOWs, does her misunderstanding/misrepresentation defeat the RCC's teaching on birth-control? Does her "personal" belief change anything? Should all non-RCs stand around and chew their nails going, "Oh, gee, who to believe?" Then, perhaps flip a coin? Or, should people realize and openly acknowledge that there is no avoiding "personal discernment/interpretaion?" We all employ it. There's no way around it. Some people simply delude themselves by asserting and believing they don't. A Catholic or Orthodox person is just as liable to be wrong as is any other Christian.

Don't know. I've never been a Catholic and I don't know many. We can all probably agree though that since the Catholic church has an established teaching on the subject and this person willfully disobeys, that person is no longer in communion with that body. It has no bearing in anyway on the Catholic teaching. I'm sure there are likewise many Orthodox who may have incorrect understandings of certain things, myself included, but I would hope they would take correction when confronted with the truth according to the Scriptures.

What we have here is completely different. The LCMS website states this:

The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod accepts the Scriptures as the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and subscribes unconditionally to all the symbolical books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God. We accept the Lutheran Confessions as articluated in the Book of Concord of 1580 because they are drawn from the Word of God and on that account regard their doctrinal content as a true and binding exposition of Holy Scripture and as authoritative for all pastors, congregations and other rostered church workers of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
.

Is that SS to you?
 
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Standing Up

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Don't know. I've never been a Catholic and I don't know many. We can all probably agree though that since the Catholic church has an established teaching on the subject and this person willfully disobeys, that person is no longer in communion with that body. It has no bearing in anyway on the Catholic teaching. I'm sure there are likewise many Orthodox who may have incorrect understandings of certain things, myself included, but I would hope they would take correction when confronted with the truth according to the Scriptures.

What we have here is completely different. The LCMS website states this:

.

Is that SS to you?

I highlighted the part from you that sounds SS.
 
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racer

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I'm not trying to be redundant, but some of you might want to actually read what some of the ECFs taught:

"But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them" - Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 2:3)


"Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture." (Athanasious De Synodis, 6)

"The knowledge of our religion and of the truth of things is independently manifest rather than in need of human teachers, for almost day by day it asserts itself by facts, and manifests itself brighter than the sun by the doctrine of Christ. Still, as you nevertheless desire to hear about it, Macarius, come let us as we may be able set forth a few points of the faith of Christ: able though you are to find it out from the divine oracles, but yet generously desiring to hear from others as well. For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth,-while there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know,-still, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them,-the faith, namely, of Christ the Saviour; lest any should hold cheap the doctrine taught among us, or think faith in Christ unreasonable." (Athanasius Against the Heathen, 1:1)

"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)

"Holy Scripture clearly teaches us both natures [of Christ]." (Thedoret, Letter 99)

"We shall therefore endeavor to persuade Arius to acknowledge the substance of the Holy Trinity, and we shall adduce proofs of this position from Holy Scripture." (Thedoret, Dialogues, 2)

"Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and

rules for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things" (Chrysostom, Homilies on Second Corinthians, 13, c. 7, v. 1

"But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)

"For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence,
unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. this salvation which we believe
depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

"In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind....In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself." -
Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)

"For we behold and see as it were in a divine spectacle exhibited to us, the notice of our God in Trinity, conveyed to us at the river Jordan. For when Jesus came and was baptized by John, the Lord by His servant (and this He did for an example of humility; for He showeth that in this same humility is righteousness fulfilled, when as John said to Him, 'I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?' He answered, 'Suffer it to be so now, that all righteousness may be fulfilled'), when He was baptized then, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Him in the form of a Dove: and then a Voice from on high followed, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Here then we have the Trinity in a certain sort distinguished. The Father in the Voice,-the Son in the Man,-the Holy Spirit in the Dove. It was only needful just to mention this, for most obvious is it to see. For the notice of the Trinity is here conveyed to us plainly and without leaving room for doubt or hesitation. For the Lord Christ Himself coming in the form of a servant to John, is doubtlessly the Son: for it cannot be said that it was the Father, or the Holy Spirit. 'Jesus,' it is said, 'cometh;' that is, the Son of God. And who hath any doubt about the Dove? or who saith, 'What is the Dove?' when the Gospel itself most plainly testifieth, 'The Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove.' And in like manner as to that voice there can be no doubt that it is the Father's, when He saith, 'Thou art My Son.' Thus then we have the Trinity distinguished. (Augustine, Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:1)

"For that there is a Word of God, and a Spirit of God, powers essentially subsisting, both creative of whatever has come into being, and comprehensive of things that exist, is shown in the clearest light out of the Divinely-inspired Scriptures." (Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 4)

"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)
 
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racer

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What we have here is completely different.
I disagree.

The LCMS website states this:

.

Is that SS to you?
Well, what mention of Scripture it expresses sounds fine to me. However, that statement is more of a creed for the Lutheran Church than it is about SS. It encompasses more that SS. However, what it says about Scripture, I agree with.

You're still missing the point. Even if some simply get it wrong or carry it too far, understand it too literally--none of those things negate or discredit Sola Scriptura.
 
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Blackknight

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Um, I don't think so. Maybe when you hear a protestant make the same outrageous claims regarding infallibility and being the one TRUE church, you can insist that we prove it. However, until then, the burden of proof is on the EOs and the RCCs. That both make these claims, and thus we know (by their assertions alone) that they can't both be right.

Show me a Protestant church that has two centuries of direct, Apostolic succession and unchanging theologies. You can't because they've all broken off into thousands of different churches.

As far as the Roman Rite is concerned we view them as in schism and some of their dogmas are heretical.

I know it's a hard line to take and unfortunately it causes us to lose some friends. Such is life I guess.
 
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Kristos

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I disagree.


Well, what mention of Scripture it expresses sounds fine to me. However, that statement is more of a creed for the Lutheran Church than it is about SS. It encompasses more that SS. However, what it says about Scripture, I agree with.

You're still missing the point. Even if some simply get it wrong or carry it too far, understand it too literally--none of those things negate or discredit Sola Scriptura.

Then I will say that the EO is Sola Scriptura too (according to my own definition of course;))
 
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racer

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Show me a Protestant church that has two centuries of direct, Apostolic succession and unchanging theologies. You can't because they've all broken off into thousands of different churches.
The RCC and the EOC can't even make that claim. Oh, wait, they slyly slip in the term "development" instead of using the word "dhange."

This has nothing to do with anything. The age of a church does not establish or prove it to be inerrant or infallible.
As far as the Roman Rite is concerned we view them as in schism and some of their dogmas are heretical.
Oh, yeah, another semantical argument---schism instead of separated or excommunicated.
I know it's a hard line to take and unfortunately it causes us to lose some friends. Such is life I guess.
Oh, please let's not get into the "marty complex" and cries of "persecution . . .":boredsleep:
 
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racer

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Then I will say that the EO is Sola Scriptura too (according to my own definition of course;))
What do you think God thinks about "mockery" and "intentional" misrepresentations of what people believe?

I find it to be sad . . . and a bit telling . . . .
 
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Blackknight

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The RCC and the EOC can't even make that claim. Oh, wait, they slyly slip in the term "development" instead of using the word "dhange."

Actually we reject the doctrine of progressive revelation along with a lot of the newer ideas like papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, and others. Even our views on original(ancestral) sin are different.

Oh, yeah, another semantical argument---schism instead of separated or excommunicated.

I wasn't making an argument, just stating a fact. The Roman church is not in communion with us however they would be welcomed home with open arms if they repented of their heterodox teachings.

If you're going to criticize Orthodox theology you should at least learn it first.
 
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Yeznik

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I'm not trying to be redundant, but some of you might want to actually read what some of the ECFs taught:

"But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them" - Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 2:3)


"Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture." (Athanasious De Synodis, 6)

"The knowledge of our religion and of the truth of things is independently manifest rather than in need of human teachers, for almost day by day it asserts itself by facts, and manifests itself brighter than the sun by the doctrine of Christ. Still, as you nevertheless desire to hear about it, Macarius, come let us as we may be able set forth a few points of the faith of Christ: able though you are to find it out from the divine oracles, but yet generously desiring to hear from others as well. For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth,-while there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know,-still, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them,-the faith, namely, of Christ the Saviour; lest any should hold cheap the doctrine taught among us, or think faith in Christ unreasonable." (Athanasius Against the Heathen, 1:1)

"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)

"Holy Scripture clearly teaches us both natures [of Christ]." (Thedoret, Letter 99)

"We shall therefore endeavor to persuade Arius to acknowledge the substance of the Holy Trinity, and we shall adduce proofs of this position from Holy Scripture." (Thedoret, Dialogues, 2)

"Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and

rules for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things" (Chrysostom, Homilies on Second Corinthians, 13, c. 7, v. 1

"But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)

"For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence,
unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. this salvation which we believe
depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

"In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind....In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself." -
Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)

"For we behold and see as it were in a divine spectacle exhibited to us, the notice of our God in Trinity, conveyed to us at the river Jordan. For when Jesus came and was baptized by John, the Lord by His servant (and this He did for an example of humility; for He showeth that in this same humility is righteousness fulfilled, when as John said to Him, 'I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?' He answered, 'Suffer it to be so now, that all righteousness may be fulfilled'), when He was baptized then, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Him in the form of a Dove: and then a Voice from on high followed, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Here then we have the Trinity in a certain sort distinguished. The Father in the Voice,-the Son in the Man,-the Holy Spirit in the Dove. It was only needful just to mention this, for most obvious is it to see. For the notice of the Trinity is here conveyed to us plainly and without leaving room for doubt or hesitation. For the Lord Christ Himself coming in the form of a servant to John, is doubtlessly the Son: for it cannot be said that it was the Father, or the Holy Spirit. 'Jesus,' it is said, 'cometh;' that is, the Son of God. And who hath any doubt about the Dove? or who saith, 'What is the Dove?' when the Gospel itself most plainly testifieth, 'The Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove.' And in like manner as to that voice there can be no doubt that it is the Father's, when He saith, 'Thou art My Son.' Thus then we have the Trinity distinguished. (Augustine, Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:1)

"For that there is a Word of God, and a Spirit of God, powers essentially subsisting, both creative of whatever has come into being, and comprehensive of things that exist, is shown in the clearest light out of the Divinely-inspired Scriptures." (Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 4)

"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)

Racer, thank you for sharing these wonderful quotes from the ECF's. But unfortunately Protestantism doesn't consider the ECF's as the Authoritive Teachers of Scripture and Doctrine. Basically it defeats the purpose of quoting ECF's if they are not held as Authorities on Scripture and Doctrine.
 
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buzuxi02

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You and your household will be saved (Acts 11:14, 16:31). Matters not to me whether an infant is baptized or not. Do it and God bless you. Don't do it and God bless you.

Justin quotes the OT text, regardless of the manuscript. "Thus his hands were steady until the sun set/evening. " He then changes it to "almost sunset". O, RCC, P all do not follow scripture; you are not faithful to scripture, but follow Justin Martyr. Of course, that is what you said you did.

Further, Martyr tells you why he alters scripture---so Jesus could be buried before sunset, according to Tradition. Had he followed scripture, Jesus would be buried the next day. That is OT and NT scripture.

But we're off on a tangent.

Justin Martyr is correct , Christ was hanging on the cross till almost evening. Because when evening comes its the sabbath day and the body had to be taken down before then and laid in a tomb. Hence why the legs were broken of the other ttwo to kill them quickly. The women didnt even have time to annoint the body. Now not sure what NT your reading but its obvious not the same as mine. Even others who hold to sola scripture would disagree with your timeline, now is that sola scrupture or your interpretation of those scripture?.
 
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Kristos

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What do you think God thinks about "mockery" and "intentional" misrepresentations of what people believe?

I find it to be sad . . . and a bit telling . . . .

I'm just playing by your rules. If anyone is allowed to make up they're own definition of Sola Scriptura, then I have made my own and it fits perfectly. Actually, mine sounds remarkably similar to the LCMS one.

what's with the ad hom?
 
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racer

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Actually we reject the doctrine of progressive revelation along with a lot of the newer ideas like papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, and others. Even our views on original(ancestral) sin are different.



I wasn't making an argument, just stating a fact. The Roman church is not in communion with us however they would be welcomed home with open arms if they repented of their heterodox teachings.

If you're going to criticize Orthodox theology you should at least learn it first.

I do understand Orthodoxy, and I do know that they differ from the RCs on many teachings. But, for some reason, the two groups band together in these forums and present a facade of being unified.

I understand the difference, however, in these threads generally we are addressing RCs and EOs so I use generalizations when I speak.

However, that does not explain away the two groups insisting on using the term "schism" as if it were a minor little issue that can easily be set aside.

Heck, the odds of those two groups coming together is far more removed that the odds of Protestant groups buying into either groups theology.

It ain't gonna happen--it can't, because both groups have made infallible declarations that prevent either side from giving in.
 
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