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EO Arguments Against Sola Scriptura

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Thekla

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Originally Posted by Thekla
No, I do not see that scripture was the only norm He used.


Fair enough. Please give for me the biblical references where Jesus pointed to each of the following in a normative, canonical fashion:

The Divine Liturgy of the EO
The Holy Services of the EO

The Holy Mysteries of the EO
The Byzantine Chant of the EO
The Temple Architecture of the EO

An earlier EO poster listed these as also part of the canon of the EO.

I already answered.
Now, show how scripture is used as the only norm in scripture.

AND: show where Christ showed the canon of the NT in a normative canonical fashion.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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But isn't claiming scripture as the only norm (when scripture arose from tradition, and does not evidence scripture as the only norm) sort of assigning a standard and claiming it is correct because "I say so" ?


Again, I think first the purpose of dogma - and scripture - should be defined.
Hi Thekla!
I found this interesting

#1378 used 5 times in NT. 1 time in Gospels [Luke 2:1]. 2 times in Acts. 2 times in Paul's Epistles. Last time shown Colo 2:14

Colo 2:14 Out-rubbing/exaleiyaV <1813> the against us handwriting to the decrees/dogmasin <1378> which was hostile to us, and has taken away out of the midst, toward-nailing it to the stauros.

Reve 21:4 And He shall be out-rubbing/exaleiyei <1813> every tear out of the eyes of them, and the death not shall be still, neither mourning neither clamor neither misery, not it shall be still, that the former things pass away/aphlqon <565> (5627).

1378. dogma dog'-mah from the base of 1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):--decree, ordinance.
1379. dogmatizo dog-mat-id'-zo from 1378; to prescribe by statute, i.e. (reflexively) to submit to, ceremonially rule:--be subject to ordinances.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Then perhaps you could describe the purpose of dogma in Christianity.
If the matter is practical, then the purpose of dogma is central to the consideration.


Does it matter to you if a teaching is correct? If you are a complete relativist, then I'm beginning to understand your position, perhaps....

Bob says that it's a dogmatic fact that Mary had pink hair (and you will be excommunicated, condemned and perhaps dispatch to heaven? ahead a schedule smelling like smoke because you don't accept as dogma that She had pink hair). Does it MATTER at all in Orthodoxy if this is correct? Right or wrong, true or false?

Let's say it matters. Then there needs to be some way to evaluate it (it's called "norming" in epistemology). And ONE of the issues in that is WHAT will serve as the rule ("straight edge") or canon ("measuring stick") - the standard, the plumbline - for this evaluation.

Let's say I ask a builder to build a wall that's six feet tall. It's finished. He claims it's 6 feet tall. How will WE determine if that's correct (if truth matters at all to you)? WHAT rule ("measuring stick") will we use in that process? As you well know, THAT is what a norma normans is in epistemology.

Now, I suppose we could look to the feelings of Bob the Builder. He feels like it's six feet tall, ergo, it is. Or we could look to the views of Bob the Builder. He says it's six feet tall and what he says IS the Rule for whether what he says is correct or not, so since he says it's six feet tall that agrees with his view that it's six feet tall, thus it is. Or we could use some Rule that's NOT Bob the Builder - something outside and above both Bob and I. Perhaps we determine to use the Craftsman Measuring Tape - that we both agree is sound and right, and that is NOT amendable by either of us. If it notes that the wall is 2 feet, 3 and 1/2 inches tall - then we have some sound basis for a determination of whether it is 6 feet tall, as claimed, whether it "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the Rule).

Now, friend, if truth is irrelevant in Orthodox, if Orthodoxy cares less about true and error, if it just doens't matter if heresy and falsehood are taught - then I can see why this whole issue is moot in the EO. Or if the EO simply regards itself as infallible and thus ANY investigation is moot (as is the RCC position and was once the LDS position), then again, it is correct cus it just is. I respect that rubric in one to the extent that they respect the same rubric in others. Or perhaps your rubric is that if self agrees with self, then self is right but if self disagrees with self then self is wrong, which of course means that everyone is right and heresy does not exist (or even is possible).





Yes, Josiah, but I don't see how the use of sola scriptura is so very different from the three-legged stool.

Well, no one argues that the ARBITRATION is infallible - no matter WHAT the rule is. But it IS a different rule.

In the RCC and LDS (and I don't know about the EO), the "three-legged-stool" is used as the norma normans. I've described this earlier, and that it's ONLY possible function is to show whether self agrees with self. It is IMPOSSIBLE for it to do otherwise, and thus seems moot to me as a rule. You did not respond to those posts (but I hope you read them).

In Sola Scriptura, the issue is NOT whether self is in conformity with self but rather whether the view is in conformity with something OUTSIDE and ABOVE self - God's written, knowable, unalterable words in Scripture. Let's return to my wall and Bob the Builder. If we embrace that Bob's views (Bob's Tradition) is the rule for Bob's views (that the wall is 6 feet tall), and if my view (tradition) that all builders cheat and the wall is 1 foot tall, we might get a VERY different basis for the arbitration than if we BOTH agree to a Rule OUTSIDE of us, one that neither of us can alter, one all can examine: that Craftsman meansuring tape. Ah, it says the wall is 3 feet, 2 1/2 inches. I see that. Bob sees that. You see that. It's right there. Black numbers on a white tape. We now have some solid basis for determining if I'm right or if Bob is right - and I can't change that and nor can Bob. This might get us further that Bob appointing Bob's view as the Rule for Bob's view and me appointing my opinion as the Rule for my opinion. In epistemology, the view of self is NEVER allowed as the norma normans - except in the RCC, LDS and some cults. Maybe in the EO, I don't know. Again, the entire issue before us is WHAT is to serve as the Rule ("stright edge") or Canon ("measuring stick") so that we have some BASIS for knowing if the claim "measures up." But again, if the Orthodox doesn't care about truth or heresy, right or wrong, good or bad - then I can see how this issue would be moot there.





.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I already answered.

I missed it. Please give the post # where you gave bibical references to Jesus using the various parts of the EO norm. Thanks.


Now, show how scripture is used as the only norm in scripture.
You agreed that Jesus did use Scripture normatively. But you disagreed with the "sola" part - noting that He used OTHER things (I suspect, the EO things I listed, the EO rule), so I asked you for those biblical examples. You say you gave them, but I can't find that anywhere. Just give me the post # where you have Jesus pointing to the church designs of EO churches as normative, where He uses the Liturgy of the EO as normative - just quote Jesus in Scripture for me. I guess you did, but I missed it. Give me the post number where you show Jesus using the following as normative:

Please give for me the biblical references where Jesus pointed to each of the following in a normative, canonical fashion:

The Divine Liturgy of the EO
The Holy Services of the EO

The Holy Mysteries of the EO
The Byzantine Chant of the EO
The Temple Architecture of the EO






.
 
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T

Thekla

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Does it matter to you if a teaching is correct? If you are a complete relativist, then I'm beginning to understand your position, perhaps....

Bob says that it's a dogmatic fact that Mary had pink hair (and you will be excommunicated, condemned and perhaps dispatch to heaven? ahead a schedule smelling like smoke because you don't accept as dogma that She had pink hair). Does it MATTER at all in Orthodoxy if this is correct? Right or wrong, true or false?


Let's say it matters. Then there needs to be some way to evaluate it (it's called "norming" in epistemology). And ONE of the issues in that is WHAT will serve as the rule ("straight edge") or canon ("measuring stick") - the standard, the plumbline - for this evaluation.

Let's say I ask a builder to build a wall that's six feet tall. It's finished. He claims it's 6 feet tall. How will WE determine if that's correct (if truth matters at all to you)? WHAT rule ("measuring stick") will we use in that process? As you well know, THAT is what a norma normans is in epistemology.

Now, I suppose we could look to the feelings of Bob the Builder. He feels like it's six feet tall, ergo, it is. Or we could look to the views of Bob the Builder. He says it's six feet tall and what he says IS the Rule for whether what he says is correct or not, so since he says it's six feet tall that agrees with his view that it's six feet tall, thus it is. Or we could use some Rule that's NOT Bob the Builder - something outside and above both Bob and I. Perhaps we determine to use the Craftsman Measuring Tape - that we both agree is sound and right, and that is NOT amendable by either of us. If it notes that the wall is 2 feet, 3 and 1/2 inches tall - then we have some sound basis for a determination of whether it is 6 feet tall, as claimed, whether it "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the Rule).

Now, friend, if truth is irrelevant in Orthodox, if Orthodoxy cares less about true and error, if it just doens't matter if heresy and falsehood are taught - then I can see why this whole issue is moot in the EO. Or if the EO simply regards itself as infallible and thus ANY investigation is moot (as is the RCC position and was once the LDS position), then again, it is correct cus it just is. I respect that rubric in one to the extent that they respect the same rubric in others. Or perhaps your rubric is that if self agrees with self, then self is right but if self disagrees with self then self is wrong, which of course means that everyone is right and heresy does not exist (or even is possible).







Well, no one argues that the ARBITRATION is infallible - no matter WHAT the rule is. But it IS a different rule.

In the RCC and LDS (and I don't know about the EO), the "three-legged-stool" is used as the norma normans. I've described this earlier, and that it's ONLY possible function is to show whether self agrees with self. It is IMPOSSIBLE for it to do otherwise, and thus seems moot to me as a rule. You did not respond to those posts (but I hope you read them).

In Sola Scriptura, the issue is NOT whether self is in conformity with self but rather whether the view is in conformity with something OUTSIDE and ABOVE self - God's written, knowable, unalterable words in Scripture. Let's return to my wall and Bob the Builder. If we embrace that Bob's views (Bob's Tradition) is the rule for Bob's views (that the wall is 6 feet tall), and if my view (tradition) that all builders cheat and the wall is 1 foot tall, we might get a VERY different basis for the arbitration than if we BOTH agree to a Rule OUTSIDE of us, one that neither of us can alter, one all can examine: that Craftsman meansuring tape. Ah, it says the wall is 3 feet, 2 1/2 inches. I see that. Bob sees that. You see that. It's right there. Black numbers on a white tape. We now have some solid basis for determining if I'm right or if Bob is right - and I can't change that and nor can Bob. This might get us further that Bob appointing Bob's view as the Rule for Bob's view and me appointing my opinion as the Rule for my opinion. In epistemology, the view of self is NEVER allowed as the norma normans - except in the RCC, LDS and some cults. Maybe in the EO, I don't know. Again, the entire issue before us is WHAT is to serve as the Rule ("stright edge") or Canon ("measuring stick") so that we have some BASIS for knowing if the claim "measures up." But again, if the Orthodox doesn't care about truth or heresy, right or wrong, good or bad - then I can see how this issue would be moot there.





.


This skips the question:

What is the purpose of dogma ?

Further, how does sola scriptura escape the fact that it creates a Tradition (sola scriptura) out of thin air ? This is a form of agreeing with oneself.
 
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Thekla

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I missed it. Please give the post # where you gave bibical references to Jesus using the various parts of the EO norm. Thanks.


You agreed that Jesus did use Scripture normatively. But you disagreed with the "sola" part - noting that He used OTHER things (I suspect, the EO things I listed, the EO rule), so I asked you for those biblical examples. You say you gave them, but I can't find that anywhere. Just give me the post # where you have Jesus pointing to the church designs of EO churches as normative, where He uses the Liturgy of the EO as normative - just quote Jesus in Scripture for me. I guess you did, but I missed it. Give me the post number where you show Jesus using the following as normative:

Please give for me the biblical references where Jesus pointed to each of the following in a normative, canonical fashion:

The Divine Liturgy of the EO
The Holy Services of the EO

The Holy Mysteries of the EO
The Byzantine Chant of the EO
The Temple Architecture of the EO






.


Its with the verse where Christ tells us cononically and normatively what the canon of scripture is ^_^

Or does sola scriptura ignore the fact that there is no scriptural norm for its scripture ...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Since there is no sola scriptura norm for the canon of scripture, how is the canon of scripture determined by adherents of sola scriptura ?
I would answer that except I am SOLO SCRIPTURA myself :blush:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Since there is no sola scriptura norm for the canon of scripture, how is the canon of scripture determined by adherents of sola scriptura ?

Or is your canon of scripture neither dogmatically nor doctrinally supported ?
Can you add or subtract to the canon of scripture at will ?

Read my whole reply else misunderstandings are likely...

It's not, so THEORETICALLY, God could add - just as He did many, many times before. However, this seems moot since none has been suggested by anyone in MANY centuries, and likely all parties involved see the Scriptures we embrace as sound and the best rule/canon/norma normans.

Now, you will immediately note that of the 50,000 supposed denominations, 3 have unique lists of Scripture: the EO, OO and CC. Each as a unique list of books shared by no other denomination on the planet (the RCC one was made official in the 16th century at Trent, I don't know the official status in the OO and EO, one told me its an unofficial matter of consensus and never has been made official - but I don't know that to be true). The other 49,997 denominations (well, a FEW of those are a tad fuzzy on this, lol - including Lutherans) either don't officially embrace the UNIQUE list of any one denomination or have an official list that does not include any unique denominational list. But, to be blunt, it's moot to anything. No matter if we embrace the OO set or the EO set or the CC set (post Trent), it frankly makes no difference since no disputed dogmas of any group are substantiated by anything in those. As I noted, Luther pointed to the CC's unique set far more often than Catholics themselves do today. It's just moot to anything.

3. AGAIN, Sola Scriptura is a PRAXIS and thus doesn't TEACH anything or declare or proclaim anything - thus the PRAXIS doesn't say what Scripture is. Just like the Rule of Law. We understand the PRAXIS - and for the PRAXIS it makes no difference if we are in California or New York, even though the laws are not exactly the same. The PRAXIS is to embrace the Law as the Rule, the PRAXIS doesn't define content of that rule.

4. I see this as a complete diversion (except for Mormons) unless you are suggesting that the design of your church building should be the 28th book of the NT, and you can point to a strong, ecumenical, historic consensus to so regard it. What puzzels me just a tad is why you want to divert this into a discussion about what IS Scripture rather than what IS the best norma normans (or to the point of this thread, the EO's reasons for rejecting embracing Scripture as canonical - Sola Scriptura). You can ask a Muslim what the Christian Scriptures are - and he knows. I wonder why you don't seem to? Again, I know 3 denominations (unlike 49,997) have an issue about this - but it's MOOT to the Praxis we're discussing. And like I've posted repeatedly, I WELCOME you using your denomination's totally unique list of books. And in doing so, you certainly MAY embrace Sola Scriptura. Go ahead. No one is stopping you. I ALWAYS allow that in ecumenical discussions. But I've been told that your rule/canon is NOT Scripture but is a long list of things - including your denomination's glorious liturgy, a chant, the design of your church building, etc. all along with Scripture (whatever list).




PS I'm still waiting for that list where Jesus references the things I was told are the EO norm as normative - you said you gave it, but I missed it. Frankly, in all my reading, I just don't recall those things even being mentioned - much less used canonically, so I'm more than curious about that. Thanks!

.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Or does sola scriptura ignore the fact that there is no scriptural norm for its scripture ...

Is there a law anywhere that tells us what all laws are? Therefore, do you reject the Rule of Law? If not, do you therefore ignore the speed limit sign when you drive because the Rule of Law doesn't apply unless that sign has posted on it every law in every local in every time and place?

I'm curious how your rubric would work. Let's see, a policeman stops you, noting that his radar got you going 60 in a 45 mile an hour zone. He points you to that big, square white sign next to you that says, "MAX SPEED: 45 MPH." You reply, "But sir, where does it say what the speed limit is on highway 1 in Baja Calfornia 6.8 miles north of Cabo? It doesn't say, therefore, it should not be regarded as normative for here and now." I'd be curious to see how the policeman responds to your view.






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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
I missed it. Please give the post # where you gave bibical references to Jesus using the various parts of the EO norm. Thanks.


You agreed that Jesus did use Scripture normatively. But you disagreed with the "sola" part - noting that He used OTHER things (I suspect, the EO things I listed, the EO rule), so I asked you for those biblical examples. You say you gave them, but I can't find that anywhere. Just give me the post # where you have Jesus pointing to the church designs of EO churches as normative, where He uses the Liturgy of the EO as normative - just quote Jesus in Scripture for me. I guess you did, but I missed it. Give me the post number where you show Jesus using the following as normative:

Please give for me the biblical references where Jesus pointed to each of the following in a normative, canonical fashion:

The Divine Liturgy of the EO
The Holy Services of the EO

The Holy Mysteries of the EO
The Byzantine Chant of the EO
The Temple Architecture of the EO



.







Its with the verse where Christ tells us cononically and normatively what the canon of scripture is


You posted that you agree, Jesus did use Scripture canonically.

But then you stated that Jesus used OTHER things canonically, too. So, I asked you for the references to that - specifically to the things the EO uses canoncially.

You posted that you did, that you gave those references. I can't find them. I asked you where you posted that. You've ignored my request.



.
 
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Thekla

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Read my whole reply else misunderstandings are likely...

It's not, so THEORETICALLY, God could add - just as He did many, many times before. However, this seems moot since none has been suggested by anyone in MANY centuries, and likely all parties involved see the Scriptures we embrace as sound and the best rule/canon/norma normans.


If you are appealing to a consistency of usage in the passage of created time, you are appealing to Tradition. The praxis you utilize (sola scriptura) can not be practice without scripture which is itself not the product of any concrete norming. This seems to me to be a glaring inconsistency in the sola scriptura praxis and ethos.

Now, you will immediately note that of the 50,000 supposed denominations, 3 have unique lists of Scripture: the EO, OO and CC. Each as a unique list of books shared by no other denomination on the planet (the RCC one was made official in the 16th century at Trent, I don't know the official status in the OO and EO, one told me its an unofficial matter of consensus and never has been made official - but I don't know that to be true). The other 49,997 denominations (well, a FEW of those are a tad fuzzy on this, lol - including Lutherans) either don't officially embrace the UNIQUE list of any one denomination or have an official list that does not include any unique denominational list. But, to be blunt, it's moot to anything. No matter if we embrace the OO set or the EO set or the CC set (post Trent), it frankly makes no difference since no disputed dogmas of any group are substantiated by anything in those. As I noted, Luther pointed to the CC's unique set far more often than Catholics themselves do today. It's just moot to anything.
As I noted before, this is not merely a matter of the book count. The Masoretic and LXX differ verse to verse. Again, how do sola scripturists resolve which OT version to use for the norming tool ? This may also apply to the NT; as verse to verse there is variation, how does one norm from varying norms ? To use soley the Masoretic text is inconsistent with your norm !

3. AGAIN, Sola Scriptura is a PRAXIS and thus doesn't TEACH anything or declare or proclaim anything - thus the PRAXIS doesn't say what Scripture is. Just like the Rule of Law. We understand the PRAXIS - and for the PRAXIS it makes no difference if we are in California or New York, even though the laws are not exactly the same. The PRAXIS is to embrace the Law as the Rule, the PRAXIS doesn't define content of that rule.
Thus, the utilization of the particular praxis of sola scriptura arises from your tradition. Praxis is not normed to any sure measure ?
4. I see this as a complete diversion (except for Mormons) unless you are suggesting that the design of your church building should be the 28th book of the NT, and you can point to a strong, ecumenical, historic consensus to so regard it. What puzzels me just a tad is why you want to divert this into a discussion about what IS Scripture rather than what IS the best norma normans (or to the point of this thread, the EO's reasons for rejecting embracing Scripture as canonical - Sola Scriptura). You can ask a Muslim what the Christian Scriptures are - and he knows. I wonder why you don't seem to? Again, I know 3 denominations (unlike 49,997) have an issue about this - but it's MOOT to the Praxis we're discussing. And like I've posted repeatedly, I WELCOME you using your denomination's totally unique list of books. And in doing so, you certainly MAY embrace Sola Scriptura. Go ahead. No one is stopping you. I ALWAYS allow that in ecumenical discussions. But I've been told that your rule/canon is NOT Scripture but is a long list of things - including your denomination's glorious liturgy, a chant, the design of your church building, etc. all along with Scripture (whatever list).
To compile a list of the various scriptural references would take hours. Further, it requires one to understand what is read; this seems to be foreign to the praxis of sola scriptura.If you are truly interested, perhaps you should consult the Orthodox Study Bible - as well as various other books on the subject. And, as Liturgy (like prayer, reading, fasting) are what we practice.

Here, as I mentioned before, we have no pictures or aural tracks in the scriptures. But we do have the "spirit" of the letter. There is also the theology: these things are expressions of and symbolically point to Christ.

It seems that the praxis of sola scriptura arises from neither scripture, nor theology. It seems rather disingenuous to demand of the EO you do not demand from yourself.


PS I'm still waiting for that list where Jesus references the things I was told are the EO norm as normative - you said you gave it, but I missed it. Frankly, in all my reading, I just don't recall those things even being mentioned - much less used canonically, so I'm more than curious about that. Thanks!
You can't even do this for the Lutheran NT or praxis of sola scriptura; how do you resolve this inconsistency ?

Finally, if you don't know the purpose of dogma or doctrine, how can you even determine what praxis to derive it from ?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Let's review....


Let's say we have two Christians, Bob and Fred (replace those names with RCC or EO or LDS or WELS or Josiah or whatever, if you like). One holds to position "A" - stressing such as dogma, and noting that he's consistent in "A". Fred holds to position "B" - stressing such as dogma, and noting that he's consistent with position "B".

Now, I agree with the Orthodox here that if truth is moot, then it's moot as to whether Bob or Fred (or both or neither) are correct. In the words of Pontius Pilate, "what is truth?" Thus, since it jsut does't matter what is said or taught about Christ or our faith - it just doesn't matter who (if either) is correct. "Whatever...." can be the attitude. I understand.

But IF one holds that truth and falsehood matter in Christianity, that such is even knowable and discernable, that we are to embrace truth and reject error - THEN we have an assignment. It needs to be determined, to some extent, if Fred and/or Bob is correct. That is called "norming."

Now ONE of the issues in norming is the embrace of WHAT will serve as the standard, the "canon" (measuring stick) or "rule" (straight edge) or "norma normans" as it is called in epistemology. WHAT will we use? In the Rule of Law, the law is used. In my field, physics, we use two things: repeatable, experimental laborative evidence and mathematics. If I'm building a wall and want it a certain highth, I might use a tape measure. This is the rule or canon or norma normans. Some call it the standard or plumbline.

In Theology, two rules are commonly used. In the RCC and LDS, there is The Three Legged Stool: the views of self as determined by self (the RCC calls this "Tradition" and the LDS calls this "Second Testimony" - although never is confined to such) PLUS EQUALLY the Scripture in the heart of self as self understands and determines such PLUS EQUALLY the rulings, decisions, arbitrations, itnerpretations of the denomination's leadership (Magisterium, Council of Twelve). These three EQUALLY and INSEPARATELY so that what one says, the others MUST teach also so as to be in comfority. This is sometimes called "Sola Ecclesia" but often it's just known by one of the legs, "Tradition" (both the RCC and LDS teach that actually, Scripture and Denomination leadership are aspects of Tradition). The alternative is Sola Scriptura. In this case, the rule if not self but something OUTSIDE and ABOVE self, to which ALL are equally accountable - including each's own views, interpretations, etc.

Now, lets apply these to our example:

Bob holds to "A". Bob insists that the rule he'll permit is the views of Bob (which he might call "Tradition" - but it's BOB'S tradition, BOB'S views), the Scripture as BOB understands them, and the determination of BOB. So, Bob holds "A" up to the light of his own views (which includes "A" of course), his own understanding of Scripture (which he has predetermined MUST teach "A" since Scripture must confirm to Bob's views) and the determinations, rulings, understandings and interpretations of Bob. Is it likely that Bob will find that "A" measures up with his canon (measuring stick)? Frankly, it's pretty hard for it not to! But, on examination, this actually is not norming at all. THAT has been entirely evaded. What has happened is that Bob simply is showing that Bob agrees with Bob (and Fred doesn't). It has nothing to do with norming, it simply as to do with affirming that self agrees with self.

Now, let's say the Bob and Fred subject both "A" and "B" to the light of Scripture. Ah, neither Bob or Fred can have any influence on Scripture, it is not THEMSELVES but outside and above themselves. If Scripture is accepted as normative (a sound measure of what is right), then THAT becomes the "measuring stick" (canon) for the evaluation of such, for BOTH "A" and "B", for Bob AND Fred. Now we have some means for getting past the "he says, he says" and the "I agree with me.... I agree with me" that Sola Ecclesia employs.


Now, I agree, this DOES require the COMMON embrace of a COMMON canon (kinda the point). Yes, it does. Which is why it is a PRAXIS. It says this is the WAY we'll do this, this is WHAT we (WE!) will embrace as the canon. Here's where the wisdom of Sola Scriptura is apparent to me. Because the ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET that affirms that all that Bob says is correct is (at most) Bob! And the ONLY one of the planet that affirms that all Fred says is correct is (at most) Fred! Embracing each's tradition gets us nowhere. BUT both Fred and Bob (and indeed virtually all 2.2 billion Christians today and countless Christians now passed) affirm that what GOD says in His Scripture is correct. In fact, the embrace of that (and yes, the embrace of 66 books so defining) is one of the oldest, most ecumenical, strongest points of consensus in all of Christianity. Not just Fred and Bob accept that God is correct in His Scripture - but virtually every other Christian does, too! This is is STARK contrast to the tradition of the 50,000 denominations of the world (including the EO). AND, it's not just a perfect circle of self-authentication ("Hey, I alone agree with I alone!") but actually some way to break through that. Lutherans shouting, "Hey, we agree with ourselves!" isn't too convincing to you, is it? I wonder why you think others should be convinced by the same argument?

Let's say you are driving down the road at 100 MPH, down the middle of the road. Why, because according to you, driving at 100 MPH down the middle of the road is correct. Jim is driving 35 MPH on the left hand side of the road. Why, because according to Jim, that's what is right. Ah, suddenly the need for the Rule of Law comes into view. Something normative, canonical for BOTH you and Jim, to which you are both accountable. Could that be the written laws of driving? Could it include that nice, big, square white sign with black numbers that says: MAX 50 MPH? Could it include a law that says we'll normally drive on the right hand side of the road in the USA? Well, seems better to ME than everyone (EO, LDS, LCMS, UMC, RCC, Billy Graham, Josiah, you....) all looking to their OWN views on the matter, proclaiming such infallible/unaccountable - and then condemning everyone else for getting in their way (or calling them apostate, heretics, satanic, or whatever). The Rule of Scripture, like the Rule of Law, subjects ALL to the same canon respected and accepted by all.




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Thekla

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Lets see sola scriptura in action:

Here's a verse from Malachi (1:11):
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

As all dogma and doctrine is derived from scripture, what if any dogma or doctrine exists among Lutherans for the use of incense ? If there is none, why is scripture ignored on this matter ?
 
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Thekla

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.


Let's review....


Let's say we have two Christians, Bob and Fred (replace those names with RCC or EO or LDS or WELS or Josiah or whatever, if you like). One holds to position "A" - stressing such as dogma, and noting that he's consistent in "A". Fred holds to position "B" - stressing such as dogma, and noting that he's consistent with position "B".

Now, I agree with the Orthodox here that if truth is moot, then it's moot as to whether Bob or Fred (or both or neither) are correct. In the words of Pontius Pilate, "what is truth?" Thus, since it jsut does't matter what is said or taught about Christ or our faith - it just doesn't matter who (if either) is correct. "Whatever...." can be the attitude. I understand.

Actually, Christ is truth ...

I don't recall 'the Orthodox" saying truth doesn't matter ^_^
though you might get that impression since there is no canonical scriptural precedent for our NT.

But IF one holds that truth and falsehood matter in Christianity, that such is even knowable and discernable, that we are to embrace truth and reject error - THEN we have an assignment. It needs to be determined, to some extent, if Fred and/or Bob is correct. That is called "norming."

Now ONE of the issues in norming is the embrace of WHAT will serve as the standard, the "canon" (measuring stick) or "rule" (straight edge) or "norma normans" as it is called in epistemology. WHAT will we use? In the Rule of Law, the law is used. In my field, physics, we use two things: repeatable, experimental laborative evidence and mathematics. If I'm building a wall and want it a certain highth, I might use a tape measure. This is the rule or canon or norma normans. Some call it the standard or plumbline.

Do you check for the accuracy of your tape measure ? Or will anything assigned the name of "tape measure" (including a cat with that name) do ?

In Theology, two rules are commonly used. In the RCC and LDS, there is The Three Legged Stool: the views of self as determined by self (the RCC calls this "Tradition" and the LDS calls this "Second Testimony" - although never is confined to such)

This method is also used by the Lutherans for the canon of scripture (although it is possible that the Lutheran NT canon has Christ commanding the canon that the Lutherans use).

PLUS EQUALLY the Scripture in the heart of self as self understands and determines such PLUS EQUALLY the rulings, decisions, arbitrations, itnerpretations of the denomination's leadership (Magisterium, Council of Twelve). These three EQUALLY and INSEPARATELY so that what one says, the others MUST teach also so as to be in comfority. This is sometimes called "Sola Ecclesia" but often it's just known by one of the legs, "Tradition" (both the RCC and LDS teach that actually, Scripture and Denomination leadership are aspects of Tradition). The alternative is Sola Scriptura. In this case, the rule if not self but something OUTSIDE and ABOVE self, to which ALL are equally accountable - including each's own views, interpretations, etc.

Except the rule used by the Lutherans "outside self" is the rule that the Lutherans self-referentially decided was the rule.
Now, lets apply these to our example:

Bob holds to "A". Bob insists that the rule he'll permit is the views of Bob (which he might call "Tradition" - but it's BOB'S tradition, BOB'S views), the Scripture as BOB understands them, and the determination of BOB. So, Bob holds "A" up to the light of his own views (which includes "A" of course), his own understanding of Scripture (which he has predetermined MUST teach "A" since Scripture must confirm to Bob's views) and the determinations, rulings, understandings and interpretations of Bob. Is it likely that Bob will find that "A" measures up with his canon (measuring stick)? Frankly, it's pretty hard for it not to! But, on examination, this actually is not norming at all. THAT has been entirely evaded. What has happened is that Bob simply is showing that Bob agrees with Bob (and Fred doesn't). It has nothing to do with norming, it simply as to do with affirming that self agrees with self.

Bob decided that because there will be a NT canon, and will contain the books he says it will contain, that there is a canonical NT to which he appeals.

Now, let's say the Bob and Fred subject both "A" and "B" to the light of Scripture. Ah, neither Bob or Fred can have any influence on Scripture, it is not THEMSELVES but outside and above themselves. If Scripture is accepted as normative (a sound measure of what is right), then THAT becomes the "measuring stick" (canon) for the evaluation of such, for BOTH "A" and "B", for Bob AND Fred. Now we have some means for getting past the "he says, he says" and the "I agree with me.... I agree with me" that Sola Ecclesia employs.

Wait, where did Bob and Fred get scripture from ? They accepted a book as valid without any norming at all !
Now, I agree, this DOES require the COMMON embrace of a COMMON canon (kinda the point). Yes, it does. Which is why it is a PRAXIS. It says this is the WAY we'll do this, this is WHAT we (WE!) will embrace as the canon.

So Bob and Fred first both agree with themselves that it is scripture (though there is no norming to support their rather fanciful position) and then they make a mini-magisterium as they both have the same fanciful opinion that they have "scripture".
Here's where the wisdom of Sola Scriptura is apparent to me. Because the ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET that affirms that all that Bob says is correct is (at most) Bob! And the ONLY one of the planet that affirms that all Fred says is correct is (at most) Fred! Embracing each's tradition gets us nowhere. BUT both Fred and Bob (and indeed virtually all 2.2 billion Christians today and countless Christians now passed) affirm that what GOD says in His Scripture is correct.

Except, that they cannot empirically show that this is true as they have no way to norm this scripture, and that it is what God says.

In fact, the embrace of that (and yes, the embrace of 66 books so defining) is one of the oldest, most ecumenical, strongest points of consensus in all of Christianity. Not just Fred and Bob accept that God is correct in His Scripture - but virtually every other Christian does, too! This is is STARK contrast to the tradition of the 50,000 denominations of the world (including the EO). AND, it's not just a perfect circle of self-authentication ("Hey, I alone agree with I alone!") but actually some way to break through that. Lutherans shouting, "Hey, we agree with ourselves!" isn't too convincing to you, is it? I wonder why you think others should be convinced by the same argument?

Actually, I watched some of the last Lutheran synod; I don't think the Lutherans agree with themselves en masse (though all presenters agreed with themself).


Let's say you are driving down the road at 100 MPH, down the middle of the road. Why, because according to you, driving at 100 MPH down the middle of the road is correct. Jim is driving 35 MPH on the left hand side of the road. Why, because according to Jim, that's what is right. Ah, suddenly the need for the Rule of Law comes into view. Something normative, canonical for BOTH you and Jim, to which you are both accountable. Could that be the written laws of driving? Could it include that nice, big, square white sign with black numbers that says: MAX 50 MPH? Could it include a law that says we'll normally drive on the right hand side of the road in the USA? Well, seems better to ME than everyone (EO, LDS, LCMS, UMC, RCC, Billy Graham, Josiah, you....) all looking to their OWN views on the matter, proclaiming such infallible/unaccountable - and then condemning everyone else for getting in their way (or calling them apostate, heretics, satanic, or whatever). The Rule of Scripture, like the Rule of Law, subjects ALL to the same canon respected and accepted by all.

Folks are called heretical and satanic for their driving methods :confused:

Whoa - that's new to me !
 
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Thekla

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You posted that you agree, Jesus did use Scripture canonically.

But then you stated that Jesus used OTHER things canonically, too. So, I asked you for the references to that - specifically to the things the EO uses canoncially.

You posted that you did, that you gave those references. I can't find them. I asked you where you posted that. You've ignored my request.

.

I challenged you to do the same for the NT canon of scripture. If you desire me to spend hours finding verses, you might at least reciprocate by making the effort to find just one !
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I challenged you to do the same for the NT canon of scripture. If you desire me to spend hours finding verses, you might at least reciprocate by making the effort to find just one !
I would be curious to see that also :wave:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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:thumbsup: everything He did and said was canon and "canonical" ...

Yup. As I posted, JESUS (God) ADDED to the rule. But did He did as you said, used some OTHER rule besides Scripture (which you agreed He used), specifically, did He use the rule which the EO does, including:

The Divine Liturgy of the EO
The Holy Services of the EO
The Holy Mysteries of the EO
The Byzantine Chant of the EO
The Temple Architecture of the EO





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