A marvellous answer to a question not begged.
Take eucharist, orthodox are certain the catholic description is false, but in rejecting the idea of matter and substance there is no conceptual frame to replace it.
I’m a simple soul.
When our Lord says “ this IS my body” I believe him.
Transubstantiation says no more and no less than Athanasius said so eloquently.
“So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ….When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.”
I do not think it is useful to play deep philosophical games on “IS”
We must become like children, so accept as they do. it should not need a philosophy PHd to understand what it means, or ontological differences. It IS the body in any relevant meaning, having once had a mundane nature.
but orthodox will argue that toss, in never less than 2000 words. If others follow the first hundred they are doing well.
And at the end of it all, it “is the flesh of Jesus” we are told by Justin martyr! .
As a scientist I have to play such similar games on the nature of reality.
The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics says nothing exists until it is observed, leading to Einstein’s statement “ I refuse to believe the moon does not exist, till I look at it” He was forced to concede it does not, because Behaviour can’t be modelled correctly without that assumption. The idea the moon exists subjectively is an illusion, apparently!to me It’s a game I have to play. It’s not the world I live in.
It is also ridiculous to argue what that means about the state “ IS”
I’m with Demetrios Kidones. Much of our difference is language and means of description, not meaning.
I’m often told orthodox don’t accept purgatory because they think of sin as a sickness needing healing, not a crime needing justice. All I can do is point out for us the sacrament of reconciliation is called a “ sacrament of healing”. For us it is healing and purification.
When coming to Filioque it is even more obscure. Saying proceed has little meaning because we can have so little concept of the mystery of God, and “ the father and I are one” so why fall out about something we cannot truly know?
I’m too busy surviving, falling every day, dusting myself down and trying to do better tomorrow, to find such arcane discussions valuable!
If Jesus says what was bread is now Him, that’s good enough for me.
No we don't! (drops mic and walks off)
I think that is the ontological difference that someone had mentioned in an earlier post. I'm not sure how the West and East ended up with this different approach to theology. The best illustration I have is from Fr. Stephen Freeman's quote from a Lutheran pastor
“I once tried to explain ‘systematic theology’ to a Russian pastor of the Underground Church, who had never seen a whole New Testament. Systematically, I began to explain to him the teaching about the Godhead, about its unity in three Persons, the teaching about original sin, about the Fall, about salvation, about the Church, about the sacraments, about the Bible as infallible revelation.
“He listened attentively. When I had finished, he asked me a most surprising question: ‘
Have those who thought out these theological systems and wrote them down in such perfect order ever carried a cross?’ He went on.
‘A man cannot think systematically even when he has a bad toothache. How can a man who is carrying a cross think systematically? But a Christian has to be more than the bearer of a heavy cross; he shares Christ’s crucifixion. The pains of Christ are his, and the pains of all creation. There is no grief and no suffering in the whole world which should not grieve him also. If a man is crucified with Christ, how can he think systematically? Can there be that kind of thought on a cross?
“’Jesus Himself thought unsystematically on the cross. He began with forgiveness; He spoke of a paradise in which even a robber had a place; then he despaired that perhaps there might be no place in paradise even for Him, the Son of God. He felt Himself forsaken. His thirst was so unbearable that He asked for water. Then He surrendered His spirit into His Father’s hand. But there followed no serenity, only a loud cry. Thank you for what you have been trying to teach me. I have the impression that you were only repeating, without much conviction, what others have taught you.’
The Systematic Theology of the Cross - Glory to God for All Things