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Entropy and How can something come from nothing? And some evolution......

OldBadfish

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Feel free to use the Laws of Thermodynamics (Matter/energy may be altered , but not created nor destroyed and/or reduced to nothingness).

The First Law says that matter/energy cannot spring forth from nothing without cause, nor can it simply vanish.

The Second law of Thermodynamics (The law of Entropy) :The entropy function always increases in the presence of internal irreversibilities for an adiabatic, closed system. In the limiting case of an internally reversible, adiabatic process, the entropy will remain constant.

Entropy (disorder) always increases or remains constant in a closed system.

As a practical matter, for any non-trivial system entropy tends to increase due to irreversible processes. The entropy of an entire closed system can never decrease within that system. Since the universe can be modeled as a closed system the universe is considered to be entropic – that is, running down.

The Law of Entropy, that is, disorder, is a dagger aimed at the heart of Darwinian fundamentalism.

It has two applications, the entropy of the entire universe considered as a single system, and the entropy of individual, open systems. In considering the significance of entropy for the universe consider the following quote by eminent evolutionary biologist Sir Julian Huxley:

"Evolution in the extended sense can be defined as a directional and essentially irreversible process occurring in time, which in its course gives rise to an increase of variety and an increasingly high level of organization in its products. Our present knowledge indeed forces us to the view that the whole of reality is evolution – a single process of self-transformation." (Huxley)

It is difficult to conceive a more direct attack on the law of entropy than Huxley's description of evolutionism.

What is funny is Huxley's declaration that "our present knowledge" forces us to view "the whole of reality" as part of this upwards process.

Because as the Second Law makes clear, the universe ("the whole of reality"?) is entropic in nature.

Contrary to Huxley’s assertion, all relevant scientific knowledge declares the opposite, that the Second Law is overwhelmingly supported by the data. Change, including biological change, does occur, but the transformation is to increasing levels of disorganization, as evolutionary biologists have now shown. (Spetner)

So how can something come from nothing? And how does this affect the outlook on evolution?

Or forget evolution and just tell me how something comes from absolutely nothing. If there was something that started our Universe what was it?
 

Arikay

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Considering more species have died than have lived, I would say more species have increased in entropy than decreased in entropy. :)

Ill leave the other questions to other people who have partially answered them in other threads, However, remember, how the universe started, Has nothing to do with whether Evolution is correct or not. :)

:D
 
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notto

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Evolution isn't an actual "thing" and therefore can't violate a physical law. It is a concept and a description of the evidence we find.

Why does mutation (the physical process that causes evolution) violate thermodynamics laws? We can observe random mutation happening. We know it happens and continues to happen. We know that beneficial mutations happen and affect survival. To state that these observed processes violate a physical law seems a bit ridiculous.
 
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OldBadfish

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Today at 09:28 PM Arikay said this in Post #2

Considering more species have died than have lived, I would say more species have increased in entropy than decreased in entropy. :)

Ill leave the other questions to other people who have partially answered them in other threads, However, remember, how the universe started, Has nothing to do with whether Evolution is correct or not. :)

:D

If everything is in a state of entropy, and more species have died than have lived, why doesn't it have anything to do with evolution?

If the Universe was spontaneously created or brought forth into existence (or even if it came or evolved from an unknown singularity, maybe a creator?), then something created this reaction.

Since our bodies are made up of all the elements found in the Universe, I think this could have some insight to how mankind came to be.

The process of evolution still had to have an origin (a singularity if you will), where did that origin come from? Where did the first microbial come from?

How did life create itself, regardless of evolution? Our world and the law of Entropy could support the idea of intelligent and unique specimen design.

Entropy exists and it suggests things are devolving, could this not be a consideration for some kind of creation?
 
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OldBadfish

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Today at 09:37 PM notto said this in Post #3

Evolution isn't an actual "thing" and therefore can't violate a physical law. It is a concept and a description of the evidence we find.

Why does mutation (the physical process that causes evolution) violate thermodynamics laws? We can observe random mutation happening. We know it happens and continues to happen. We know that beneficial mutations happen and affect survival. To state that these observed processes violate a physical law seems a bit ridiculous.

I accept the concept of genetic mutation of observed microbials and bacteria, both beneficial and not beneficial (entropic). ;)
 
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troodon

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My favorite 2nd Law of Thermodynamics website, although the author is a bit silly in his question-answer setup.

http://www.secondlaw.com/

Towards the end of his description he starts talking about how entropy doesn't equal disorder.
 
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Arikay

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Evolution is the study of a small part of all of this.

The begining of life has nothing to do with the theory of evolution.

It has to do with the theory of abiogenesis.

This is a common problem, the mixing of different theories into a single group, then finding problems with part of the group and believing that this disproves the entire group.

Today at 09:44 PM Badfish said this in Post #4



If everything is in a state of entropy, and more species have died than have lived, why doesn't it have anything to do with evolution?

If the Universe was spontaneously created or brought forth into existence (or even if it came or evolved from an unknown singularity, maybe a creator?), then something created this reaction.

Since our bodies are made up of all the elements found in the Universe, I think this could have some insight to how mankind came to be.

The process of evolution still had to have an origin (a singularity if you will), where did that origin come from? Where did the first microbial come from?

How did life create itself, regardless of evolution? Our world and the law of Entropy could support the idea of intelligent and unique specimen design.

Entropy exists and it suggests things are devolving, could this not be a consideration for some kind of creation?
 
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Cantuar

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The First Law says that matter/energy cannot spring forth from nothing without cause, nor can it simply vanish.

The first law says that matter/energy can be neither created nor destroyed. I don't recall anything about cause.

Scientific creationism claims that the universe was created from nothing. That contravenes the first law right there. The fact that it also claims that it was created supernaturally means that it acknowledges that it contravenes the relevant laws of nature. Since science studies processes that are in line with the laws of nature and scientific creationism starts out by ignoring the first law of thermodynamics, I don't see why you think the laws of thermodynamics are such a problem for evolution in particular. I'd be looking to your own claims if I were you.
 
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notto

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Today at 05:46 AM Badfish said this in Post #5



I accept the concept of genetic mutation of observed microbials and bacteria, both beneficial and not beneficial (entropic). ;)

So what physical process used to define evolutionary theory doesn't follow the laws of thermodynamics?
 
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David Gould

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Matter and energy spring from nothing all the time at the quantum level.

They just do so in such a way as to be perfectly balanced - they borrow energy and then pay it back or they appear in a particle/anti-particle pair heading in opposite directions, giving an energy balance of zero.

Current observations seem to support the idea that the entire universe has an energy balance of zero. Effectively, we are simply nothing scattered around in a more interesting way. ;)
 
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OldBadfish

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Today at 10:14 PM David Gould said this in Post #10

Matter and energy spring from nothing all the time at the quantum level.

They just do so in such a way as to be perfectly balanced - they borrow energy and then pay it back or they appear in a particle/anti-particle pair heading in opposite directions, giving an energy balance of zero.

Current observations seem to support the idea that the entire universe has an energy balance of zero. Effectively, we are simply nothing scattered around in a more interesting way. ;)

Yeah but scientists that a lot of people put so much trust in are certain that something cannot come from nothing.

If nothing existed in the beginning then there was no energy to borrow from, and since you and some others don't believe in creation, there had to be a start, an Alpha concept isn't a viable option for non creationists, or you would have to concede that you might have been created.
 
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OldBadfish

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Today at 10:14 PM notto said this in Post #9



So what physical process used to define evolutionary theory doesn't follow the laws of thermodynamics?

I am not sure. It's not that I have the problem with the definition, I have the problem with the source of matter comprising the matter that enabled mankind, animals and living creatures to exist, there had to be a beginning for evolution to take place.
 
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notto

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Today at 06:42 AM Badfish said this in Post #12



I am not sure. It's not that I have the problem with the definition, I have the problem with the source of matter comprising the matter that enabled mankind, animals and living creatures to exist, there had to be a beginning for evolution to take place.

So biological evolution doesn't defy the laws of thermodynamics any more than the revolutionary war does. You have a problem with the source of the matter comprising the matter that enabled the soldiers to fight in the revolutionary war, there had to be a beginning for the revolutionary war to exist.

Got it.
 
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David Gould

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Today at 05:40 PM Badfish said this in Post #11



Yeah but scientists that a lot of people put so much trust in are certain that something cannot come from nothing.

If nothing existed in the beginning then there was no energy to borrow from, and since you and some others don't believe in creation, there had to be a start, an Alpha concept isn't a viable option for non creationists, or you would have to concede that you might have been created.

Something may not be able to come from nothing.

But if the universe is nothing spread around in a more interesting way (the total energy in the universe is zero ...)then nothing came from nothing.

The problem is therefore overcome.

I am not saying this is true; it is simply that preliminary evidence lends some weight to the idea.

 

Some quantum particles do not borrow energy to appear. Instead, they appear as matched pairs with a total energy content of zero.
 
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Jutsuka

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Today at 07:14 AM David Gould said this in Post #10

Matter and energy spring from nothing all the time at the quantum level.

They just do so in such a way as to be perfectly balanced - they borrow energy and then pay it back or they appear in a particle/anti-particle pair heading in opposite directions, giving an energy balance of zero.

Current observations seem to support the idea that the entire universe has an energy balance of zero. Effectively, we are simply nothing scattered around in a more interesting way. ;)

No, they appear in a particle/anti-parcticle pair, lead a breif existence and then annihilate one another giving an energy balance of zero.
 
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David Gould

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Today at 06:04 PM Jutsuka said this in Post #15



No, they appear in a particle/anti-parcticle pair, lead a breif existence and then annihilate one another giving an energy balance of zero.


Are you sure? I read somewhere that if one half of the pair fell into a black hole that would allow the other half to survive as the energy debt for its existence is paid in that destruction.

As far as I am aware, the reason they anhilate is that they automatically collapse as their magnetic attraction at the extremely short distances that they appear from one another excedes their velocity energy.

I could be wrong, however.
 
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Jutsuka

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Today at 08:22 AM Joe_Sixpack said this in Post #16

"No, they appear in a particle/anti-parcticle pair, lead a breif existence and then annihilate one another giving an energy balance of zero."

Not always - look at Hawking Radiation for example. Particle pair production does not necessarily result in their annihilation.

No, but thats because the antimatter particle falls into a black hole, not your average situation I'd say...
 
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Jutsuka

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Today at 08:51 AM David Gould said this in Post #17




Are you sure? I read somewhere that if one half of the pair fell into a black hole that would allow the other half to survive as the energy debt for its existence is paid in that destruction.

As far as I am aware, the reason they anhilate is that they automatically collapse as their magnetic attraction at the extremely short distances that they appear from one another excedes their velocity energy.

I could be wrong, however.

I explained it the same way Stephen Hawking does in his book "The Universe In A Nutshell".
 
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