Enlightenment

[CantThinkofaUserName]

It seems that making a decision is what is frightening you. Fear of making the wrong decision. But it seems to me that if you are seeking the will of God (and you are) that you will come to hear the Will of God eventually.

Serious question: By "hear", do you mean with my ears as I do any person that would speak to me? Or is this an understanding you're speaking of?

Should you not have greater fear of rejecting the Will of God when it is offered to you to accept?

Well that's exactly what I'm talking about - the will of God being in front of me and me idiotically choosing otherwise. I'm worried of having the same "I KNOW" feeling that some of the extremists have when they do outrageous things such as send planes through buildings and what not. They're blinded by their own "understanding - but one thing's for sure, they are convicted of what they believe to be a FACT and "KNOW" in their own minds that "god" is telling them to do what they do. In short, I don't want to fall under that category. Having a false sense of "understanding". Thinking I "know" God and not realizing that I couldn't be further from the "truth".

I think a lot of Agnostics have this false sense of security that if they remain non committal for their entire lives then they can front up to God in the end and say " Well God my excuse is i never had enough evidence to accept your will"

That very well may be the case with, as you say, "a lot of Agnostics" - I don't know, but that surely isn't the case with me. If there IS a God, this is one thing that I am 100% certain about: He HAS given me the knowledge and power and understanding to find Him. But, for most people (I would assume all?), there IS a search involved, isn't there?

What will the agnostic say when God replies I gave you my Will there and you never accepted it?

"I tried"?

Seriously, tho'...with me, it's not so much that I'm not accepting as it is with wanting to know that what I'm accepting is "real". I mean I ask for God to give me something - anything - and if He has given me whatever I need to begin my belief in Him, then truthfully, I haven't seen or understood it yet - and my heart won't allow me to just pick up and follow any religion.

If my vision of "the truth" wasn't so blurry, and I knew who God IS, why wouldn't I accept his will? I can't see His will, but I'm surely trying. It's kind of like those 3D pictures where you've got to stare at them long enough, sometimes for hours at a time, to eventually see the picture that's been in front of you all along. I'm sitting here straining my eyes to the point where they're about to fall out of my sockets, and I'm hoping that the squares, triangles, and circles that mean nothing right now will eventually blossom into a beautiful design - but that just hasn't happened yet.

What is to say that Jesus was no picked up by Aliens and taken to Orion’s belt to study under Zayfoid Betelgeuse the renound Antarian scollar? Well it could have happened right?

Show me historical proof of what you're saying ever being true. Your stance seems to be that, if it's not in the bible, any historical evidence that may surface is comparable to that of aliens from other planets. That's not a very logical argument, IMO, Adstar. Do you just doubt historical information as a whole?

I mean I even read a quote in the bible yesterday that states something along the lines of, "Jesus did many miracles, which were not recorded in this book". And by "this book", I'm assuming they mean the Bible. Am I taking that out of context? If not, then that should at least show you that there ARE unexplained things/"miracles" that Jesus has done that aren't in the bible.

I can make up more wild fantasies about where Jesus might have travelled to and what Jesus might have done. But if you are serious about the 12 years in India and also all the other places he would have to go to study all the stuff you mentioned He would have probably started his ministry in Israel when He was 98 years old rather than 30 years old.

I don't get it, why?

This religion would not then be a carbon copy of Christianity would it. If it replaced the Son with an idol it would cease from being a carbon copy.

carbon copy
–noun

2. a near or exact duplicate of a given person or thing; replica.


carbon copy
n.

2. A person or thing that closely resembles another.

Let's not split hairs here, Adstar, I was simply trying to point out that if every aspect of Christianity looked the same, with the exception that Jesus was replaced with another male figure.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

May i ask why you need to know?

It's because I want answers.

Also, I just can't accept that every human prior to Jesus being born will not experience Heaven - it just doesn't seem right. That everyone from 0-2000 AD just lucked out? And everyone prior to that date is, excuse my abbreviation, but SOL? Why would God only allow some of His children the chance of accepting Christ if Jesus really is the "savior"?

Does this have any bearing on your decision to accept or reject the Will of God?

It's not "the will of God" I'm having trouble with, it's accepting Jesus as the "Son" of God.

Will you accept only the god revealed to you that conforms to your judgement as to what god should be and do?

No.

Can you place your eternity in your own hands? Do you think your resioning is perfect enough to place your trust in yourself over such an important matter? I tell you i would be in great fear if i placed my trust in my own judgement to that extent.

I'd like to know what exactly gave you the impression that I've placed my trust in my own judgment?

Also, I get the feeling that you're getting a bit annoyed? If not, apologies for being a bit presumptuous. The thing is, you've found God, and I haven't - I'm trying to find Him. I may eventually find Him by asking these, what very well may be, annoying questions.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Hi, just using this post to make a reply.

It is a very good thing to ask any and all questions you have.

It's how we grow.

Many don't really quite know what it is that is a stumbling block to them, but thru asking questions they get more to the source.

We all come to Christ differently, some need much more than others, some need little to nothing but to hear the gospel.

Some just need to be asked two questions, such as what occured to me.

So we all come differently and it's okay.

My questions came more after I started reading the bible, and hehe had some 3 ladies to call and who helped me so much. Was just talking to one of those friends last night, and saying, wow, what about all those who don't have people to reach out to, as I did.

So, God bless you hon and it is your questions to us that also help us to grow as we need to know ourselves, why we believe what we believe and research the scripture and this is a very good thing.

So God bless,
tapero

Thanks for the words, Tapero.

 

[Adstar]

Serious question: By "hear", do you mean with my ears as I do any person that would speak to me? Or is this an understanding you're speaking of?

Understand.

There is a simple concept Of forgiveness for ones imperfections and restoration to eternity with God through the Work of Jesus. When people come to understand that concept they make a basic decision. Some accept the concept, some see it as foolishness, Others see it as a stumbling stone.

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:


“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Another point. I often see people who will accept nothing until they understand everything. They want to know all the deeper things of the faith before they will accept the simple things. But that shows a lack of trust in God. Think of the knowledge as a stairway one has to take each step one after the next to reach the final step and reach the top and see the view from the right perspective. If one balks at the first step then they have no hope of seeing things from the top view.

Well that's exactly what I'm talking about - the will of God being in front of me and me idiotically choosing otherwise. I'm worried of having the same "I KNOW" feeling that some of the extremists have when they do outrageous things such as send planes through buildings and what not. They're blinded by their own "understanding - but one thing's for sure, they are convicted of what they believe to be a FACT and "KNOW" in their own minds that "god" is telling them to do what they do. In short, I don't want to fall under that category. Having a false sense of "understanding". Thinking I "know" God and not realizing that I couldn't be further from the "truth".

It is good that you are worried about your own judgement. But having confidence in God is a good thing. If ones confidence is placed in a false view of God that leads them to do evil then so be it. Those that accept an evil view of God demonstrate by their acceptance of the false view that they are attracted to the evil that is being put forward. But those who are attracted to the Love of the Truth put forward by Jesus through the scriptures will be attracted to the mercy preached and live a life seeking to have mercy and give Love to others. People will embrace what they Will to embrace. If ones Will is evil they will be attracted to evil and embrace it.

That very well may be the case with, as you say, "a lot of Agnostics" - I don't know, but that surely isn't the case with me. If there IS a God, this is one thing that I am 100% certain about: He HAS given me the knowledge and power and understanding to find Him. But, for most people (I would assume all?), there IS a search involved, isn't there?

Searching is an outward sign of an inner desire to discover. But One Cannot Find God. Let me say that again to counter what you are so certain about

You Cannot Find God.

The only way people come to a relationship with God is when God reveals Himself to the seeker.

Scripture does say you will find God when you seek Him with all yourt mind and all your desire. But God reveals Himself to those who have a desire and a mind to find Him.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Show me historical proof of what you're saying ever being true. Your stance seems to be that, if it's not in the bible, any historical evidence that may surface is comparable to that of aliens from other planets. That's not a very logical argument, IMO, Adstar. Do you just doubt historical information as a whole?

I mean I even read a quote in the bible yesterday that states something along the lines of, "Jesus did many miracles, which were not recorded in this book". And by "this book", I'm assuming they mean the Bible. Am I taking that out of context? If not, then that should at least show you that there ARE unexplained things/"miracles" that Jesus has done that aren't in the bible.

Don't you realise that most history that survives is written by official historians and official historians serve the desires of the powers that be. History is a malleable commodity that can be adjusted when necessary to support the current desires of the elites. No i do not trust 100% in any information on Jesus or of the history of the Jewish or surrounding peoples of Biblical times put forward by historians.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Originally Posted by Adstar
I can make up more wild fantasies about where Jesus might have travelled to and what Jesus might have done. But if you are serious about the 12 years in India and also all the other places he would have to go to study all the stuff you mentioned He would have probably started his ministry in Israel when He was 98 years old rather than 30 years old.

I don't get it, why?

How easy do you think it was for a commoner to travel from Israel to india at the times of Jesus?

How many years would it have taken a Israeli commoner to learn the local language to the proficiency needed to then go and spend years in a hindu place of learning to their teachings.

Then how long would and difficult would it be for Jesus to travel across the Himalayas to Tibet?

The how long would it have taken a Jewish commoner to learn the Tibetan language to the proficiency needed to study buddhist teachings to the level that some of these supposed historians are indicating???

Lets also add all the other exotic places/ cultures/ and beliefs that Jesus was supposed to have travelled to and become learned in all before He was 30 years old??

Lets be clear about this. What all these supposed histories are endeavouring to do is lower Jesus to the level of a human scholar. They seek to undermine Jesus the Messiah. Jesus who is in God and God who is in Jesus. That is what all these alternate histories are aimed at doing. And if one is attracted to them then one is united in will with those who seek to take away the uniqueness of the Messiah Jesus and make him a mere man

carbon copy
–noun

2. a near or exact duplicate of a given person or thing; replica.


carbon copy
n.

2. A person or thing that closely resembles another.

Let's not split hairs here, Adstar, I was simply trying to point out that if every aspect of Christianity looked the same, with the exception that Jesus was replaced with another male figure.

In my culture. (and i am from a western culture) the term "Carbon Copy" singifys that the second is identical to the first.

But if there has been a misunderstanding between us then it has been caused by differeant interpritations of a common term.

But again similar does not mean the same, no matter how similar they are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

It's because I want answers.

Also, I just can't accept that every human prior to Jesus being born will not experience Heaven - it just doesn't seem right. That everyone from 0-2000 AD just lucked out? And everyone prior to that date is, excuse my abbreviation, but SOL? Why would God only allow some of His children the chance of accepting Christ if Jesus really is the "savior"?

I do not know what the term (but SOL) means maybe you should provide a definition.

Where did i put that proposition forward? The OT even reveals that there where people before the times of Jesus who where told that they would be reasurected into the kingdom to come.

Daniel 12
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

It's not "the will of God" I'm having trouble with, it's accepting Jesus as the "Son" of God.

Trouble or no trouble it is decision that you have to make.

Originally Posted by Adstar
Can you place your eternity in your own hands? Do you think your resioning is perfect enough to place your trust in yourself over such an important matter? I tell you i would be in great fear if i placed my trust in my own judgement to that extent.

I'd like to know what exactly gave you the impression that I've placed my trust in my own judgment?

Did you notice the Question mark ? it was a question. A question asked not really to extract and answer or to cause offence but to provoke self reflection. It is a question that all seekers should ask themselves.

The thing is, you've found God, and I haven't - I'm trying to find Him. I may eventually find Him by asking these, what very well may be, annoying questions.

Once again it is God whom reveals Himself to those who seek Him. from the same Book of Daniel i got the above scripture Quote from.



Daniel 10
10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.
12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Happy (Belated) Holiday to you all.

If one balks at the first step then they have no hope of seeing things from the top view.

What is the "first step"?

God allows us to make our own choices, or else we would all be automatons. I wouldn't have to worry about going to hell because any decision I would have made throughout my life would not have been mine, but that of Gods.

Point being: God gives us the choice to make wrong decisions, and gives us the choice to make right ones, as well. Many people have taken, what they believe to be, their "first step" into something that was completely false. So it's hard for me to comprehend how some find it so difficult to understand where I'm coming from when I'm just trying to be sure of the biggest decision of my life.

You Cannot Find God.

Scripture does say you will find God...

Shouldn't you be certain about what you speak of before confidently tellings others what they should and should not be certain about? Or are you just being a typical Christian who's hell-bent on proving anyone who has opposing thoughts on Christianity wrong?

Did you eventually run into this piece of scripture:

Deuteronomy 4:29:

"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

...hence your second quote and the "edit"?

Or how about the ever-so-famous:

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

God has already "revealed" himself to everyone, every second of every day - it's in our hands to see (or "find") Him.

No i do not trust 100% in any information on Jesus...

Hey, look at that, I don't either. lol

I know we're not exactly on the same boat, but you should have some what of an understanding as to why people, like myself, find it hard to base (without question) the entire conduct of their lives on a book that was written by a few, mere humans who claim that a man who was born from a virgin woman is the "Son of God".

How easy do you think it was for a commoner to travel from Israel to india at the times of Jesus?

I'm not sure, but it'll be interesting to find out - I'll definitely look into every detail of that when I get a free moment. Considering there's between 18 and 30 years of Jesus' life that, from what I've read, has not been documented, the search should get interesting.

My main point, tho', was to figure out whether or not he studied, not so much where he studied, but whether or not he did - and he could have easily done that where he resided for the majority of his life.

What all these supposed histories are endeavouring to do...That is what all these alternate histories are aimed at doing.

All? Endeavoring? You may want to tone the paranoia down a bit there, 'cause that's pure speculation on your part and you're completely generalizing the reasons behind why every man and woman on this planet (who isn't a Christian, by the way) wrote what they did in reference to Jesus' life.

And if one is attracted to them then one is united in will with those who seek to take away the uniqueness of the Messiah Jesus and make him a mere man.

Whether it's true or not, is still up for debate in my own mind - but Jesus' "uniqueness" has come up for question, IMO. There have been nearly 40 other "messiahs" who have several identical characteristics to that of Jesus - some of the info has been debunked (such as the whole Dec. 25th thing), but a lot of the other pieces of information have been confirmed as factual by many.

If the "uniqueness" is real and Jesus is, truly, the one and only "Son of God", then may He forgive me for disbelieving and allow me to see what I've been missing all of this time. But if he's not, then being "in will" with those trying to find the actual "truth"; trying to find the One true God, if it isn't in fact Jesus, I'm believe is the right place to be.

I do not know what the term (but SOL) means maybe you should provide a definition.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sol

I'd bookmark that site if I were you.

p.s. Check your PM box, I'm going to send you the names of those who had 12 disciples. Those who were called "the truth", "the light", "the lamb of god", and "gods anointed son". Those who performed miracles and many who were resurrected three days after their death, among many other things.

 

[Adstar]

Happy (Belated) Holiday to you all.



What is the "first step"?

Well the first thing one has to have is the belief that God exists. One must believe God is before they can seek His will. From your posts i can see that you already believe that God exists, your worry is what path leads to Him.

The First real step is to believe God is perfect and His will is perfect. One can then compare themselves to God and come to the wisdom that they are not perfect and ones will often desires imperfect things. This leads to an accurate view of ones reality in relation to God's reality. One then know that an eternal relationship with God can only come about through Gods Mercy/forgiveness on the one who is imperfect. The imperfect one can never achieve perfection. This is where the Forgiveness of Jesus comes in focus. If one accepts the message of Jesus that all men who seek forgiveness demonstrate contrition for their imperfection and thereby acknowledge the perfection of Gods will. So that while they themselves in practise can never be perfect in their Spirit they agree with perfection and in spirit they are righteous and therefore willing to accept the gift of Gods forgiveness as the only way to an eternal relationship with God.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “ I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

God allows us to make our own choices, or else we would all be automatons. I wouldn't have to worry about going to hell because any decision I would have made throughout my life would not have been mine, but that of Gods.

Point being: God gives us the choice to make wrong decisions, and gives us the choice to make right ones, as well. Many people have taken, what they believe to be, their "first step" into something that was completely false. So it's hard for me to comprehend how some find it so difficult to understand where I'm coming from when I'm just trying to be sure of the biggest decision of my life.

So fear is the block to you taking a step. Do you think that taking a set locks you into taking the next step? Do you think once you chose a path then you cannot later realise your mistake and change direction? Taking the first step does not turn you into a mindless zombie locking your into a path to destruction. there are many people who have taken a step and later found that the way they chose was wrong and they again sought God and found Him on the right path.

Do not let fear be a chain upon you.

Shouldn't you be certain about what you speak of before confidently tellings others what they should and should not be certain about? Or are you just being a typical Christian who's hell-bent on proving anyone who has opposing thoughts on Christianity wrong?

Look i believe what i believe, i give what i believe i am lead to give. It is up to the one listening to the message to accept or reject the message being given. I am very intent on giving what i believe i am lead to give in the best way i can give it. But in the end i know that it is not my words that do anything but the work of the Holy Spirit that leads a willing person to the truth. So yes i am very motivated to give what i believe and i will not be apologetic about it at all. Each person is free to accept or reject what their will leads them to accept or reject.

Did you eventually run into this piece of scripture:

Deuteronomy 4:29:

"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

...hence your second quote and the "edit"?

Well this scripture is actually before the book of Daniel that i quoted before. So yeah i read it.

Or how about the ever-so-famous:

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Yep they are the Words of Jesus in the book of Luke

And here is another one from the letter of James.

James 1
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God has already "revealed" himself to everyone, every second of every day - it's in our hands to see (or "find") Him.

Yes it is our calling to seek, but in the end it is God who leads one to the truth.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I know we're not exactly on the same boat, but you should have some what of an understanding as to why people, like myself, find it hard to base (without question) the entire conduct of their lives on a book that was written by a few, mere humans who claim that a man who was born from a virgin woman is the "Son of God".

Firstly if you believe in God then you must believe that God can do some pretty amazing stuff. If God is a God then causing a virgin to give birth to a son without a human father is childs play. In fact if one believes in God then all the amazing happenings of the bible are no big deal to you.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]