English for foreigners

[Jack of Spades]

This is both venting thread for those who are not native english speakers and place to ask for grammar advices. I can google most of the grammar stuff, but sometimes I just don't get it if someone doesn't explain it.

Sooo, here comes my points:

1) I am frustrated, symphatize me please. What's in my head doesn't come out in my typing, it feels like being a bit handicapped.

Now, that's off my chest, the actual technical questions:

2) If I want to talk about someone whos gender is unknown or can be either, how am I supposed to express it? Having to say "he or she" feels like a lot of work to type everytime. In my language there are no he or she, it's just "hän". This is sometimes confusing for me. What's the best way to talk about someone who's gender is not relevant to the topic and can be either?

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

 

[Tom Mix]

#2 they

#3 Most just say good or I am fine. Its just a greeting like "Hello" but a little more long winded. It is also a conversation starter. Where "hello" is something you say as you pass somebody "How are you" is more of a conversation starter. Another way to start a conversation would be to ask about the weather or "How bout them Yankees".

 

[Jack of Spades]

#2 they

Isn't "they" a plural? Does it work when I talk about single person?

 

[scraparcs]

Isn't "they" a plural? Does it work when I talk about single person?

It is plural but in informal communication English speakers use it all the time when they want to talk about "he or she." It's not really considered proper usage yet, but it's not really improper in informal communication either.

As for #3, I always thought of it as a question but apparently it depends on where you are at and the situation. Good luck with that!

 

[Jack of Spades]

It is plural but in informal communication English speakers use it all the time when they want to talk about "he or she." It's not really considered proper usage yet, but it's not really improper in informal communication either.

Hmm okay. So, it's like informal solution to the he or she problem which is not yet official?

Thank you!

As for #3, I always thought of it as a question but apparently it depends on where you are at and the situation. Good luck with that!

 

[Tom Mix]

"Hello" and "How are you" are the same thing and when you are asked "How are you" we reply "good, thank you" unless you are a simple easy going person and then they start describing how they really are. When they reply "good' after being asked "How they are" you just simply reply "good" back to them.

If you say it in Spanish (which we do a lot now days since there are lots of Mexicans here) you say, ¿Cómo está usted? and they will reply, Bien.

I also great my Mexican friends with que pasa which means whats up.

 

[Citanul]

On "they" as singular - that's actually been around for many years. Chaucer, Shakespeare and the King James Bible (amongst others) all used it.

https://motivatedgrammar.wordpress....ar-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

 

[Tom Mix]

He went to the store.
or
She went to the store.
or
They went to the store.

It is not easy and you have to erase the true meaning out of your mind and replace it with a blank meaning.

 

[Cearbhall]

Hmm okay. So, it's like informal solution to the he or she problem which is not yet official?

Yep. Avoid it in formal writing if it might count against you, but "they" is acceptable otherwise. Especially since there are people who actually go by that pronoun.

 

[Blue Wren]

I am Scandinavian, also. English is not my native language, either. It's the 4th language, that I've learned. My main problem, which is strange, is that I use too many commas, when I write in English. I cannot explain why. It just comes out this way, when I type. People complain about this.

I get frustrated, with the he or she, in English, as well. We were taught, that it was not proper, to use "they" in place of him or her / he / she, when the gender is not known. I wish, English had something like hän, which would be so much simpler. Lol, this lady, who rants about feminism, but does not seem to understand what it is, accused feminists, of creating hän, out of man-hatred. No, no, of course, that isn't true. It makes things, so much simpler, for all. It's useful.

 

[Cearbhall]

Lol, this lady, who rants about feminism, but does not seem to understand what it is, accused feminists, of creating hän, out of man-hatred. No, no, of course, that isn't true. It makes things, so much simpler, for all. It's useful.

Oh, don't worry, English-speakers hear the same thing when someone dares to suggest that "he" and other words such as "mailman" do not adequately cover both males and females. I'm surprised that people would rant about the same thing regarding a language that has a well-established gender neutral pronoun.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I wish, English had something like hän, which would be so much simpler.

There is an idea, first I'm going to lobby corrupt politicians around the globe to push for adopting "hän" in english language with the scandic letter in it, then I'm going to sell scandic keyboards to all 400 million native english speakers and accuse everyone who doesn't buy one of being politically incorrect chauvinist! I'll be rich!

 

[William67]

If I don't know someone's gender, which almost never happens, I usually go by what the person is wearing. If the person is wearing a dress, I say "she". If the person is wearing gender neutral clothing, I go by physical clues, such as their brow ridge, jawline, of they have an adams apple. Those are usually good indicators.

If an English speaking person says Hello, say Hello in return.

 

[Jack of Spades]

There also seem to be different rules for using capital letters in english, than in finnish. This is really no biggie, but I bet I'm never going to get it right. It seems to me that in english, you're supposed to use capital letters more often than in finnish. For example, Christian is not written with capital letter in my language.

 

[Tom Mix]

Everybody I know that speaks a foreign language says that learning English is very hard but yet just about anywhere you go in this world you will find somebody who speaks it.

My brother who was in the U.S. Navy for many years told me that no mater were you go you will find somebody who speaks English. He said that they know English speaking people usually have money and if you want their money you better speak their language.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Everybody I know that speaks a foreign language says that learning English is very hard but yet just about anywhere you go in this world you will find somebody who speaks it.

Actually, I don't think english is very difficult language. Also, it's very close to many european languages, like germany, or especially swedish. Swedish and english are so close that I can imagine that it's easyish to learn english for a swede and other way around.

My brother who was in the U.S. Navy for many years told me that no mater were you go you will find somebody who speaks English. He said that they know English speaking people usually have money and if you want their money you better speak their language.

Yes, it's the most spoken non-native language in the world. Thanks to british empire and american leading role in developing computers.

 

[Sketcher]

2) If I want to talk about someone whos gender is unknown or can be either, how am I supposed to express it? Having to say "he or she" feels like a lot of work to type everytime. In my language there are no he or she, it's just "hän". This is sometimes confusing for me. What's the best way to talk about someone who's gender is not relevant to the topic and can be either?

Depends on if it's a named, specific person or more in the general sense.

Isn't "they" a plural? Does it work when I talk about single person?

Yes, and "they" is technically grammatically incorrect. Lots of people still use it in informal speech anyway.

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

Often, it's not a completely literal question. I do hear that American culture is an aberration when that question is asked, that it is meant literally just about everywhere else.

 

[Qyöt27]

There also seem to be different rules for using capital letters in english, than in finnish. This is really no biggie, but I bet I'm never going to get it right. It seems to me that in english, you're supposed to use capital letters more often than in finnish. For example, Christian is not written with capital letter in my language.

Generally, capital letters are used in English for three purposes:

• Beginning of sentences
• Proper nouns (like names and placenames)
• Proper adjectives

There's generally not many exceptions to that, unless it's for stylistic reasons (stuff like Title Case when used for media, and occasionally differing capitalization is used for emphasis in informal situations). Certain words are case-sensitive, but they're generally few and far between and readers probably won't be confused by it because the intended meaning would be obvious from context.

German capitalizes more things than English does, since it requires *all* nouns to be capitalized, regardless of whether it's a proper noun or not. Which is fine when English speakers learn German, but can be tricky for German speakers learning English.


In addition to they, there's also the possessive form their (he/his, she/hers, it/its, they/their), or even more general placeholder terms: 'who(m)ever' or 'who(m)soever', or 'one'. The latter three generally are used in formal writing.

 

[keith99]

I am Scandinavian, also. English is not my native language, either. It's the 4th language, that I've learned. My main problem, which is strange, is that I use too many commas, when I write in English. I cannot explain why. It just comes out this way, when I type. People complain about this.

I get frustrated, with the he or she, in English, as well. We were taught, that it was not proper, to use "they" in place of him or her / he / she, when the gender is not known. I wish, English had something like hän, which would be so much simpler. Lol, this lady, who rants about feminism, but does not seem to understand what it is, accused feminists, of creating hän, out of man-hatred. No, no, of course, that isn't true. It makes things, so much simpler, for all. It's useful.

The complaint about hän seems rather strange. All the synthetic feminist supposedly gener neutral terms all are much closer to 'she' then 'he'. Hän is far to close to 'him' to make a radical feminist happy.

EDIT: Do you tend to pause when speaking English? I know I'd have to pause rather often when speaking the 4th language I had learned. If so perhaps your use of commas mirrors your spoken words.

 

[Cearbhall]

The complaint about hän seems rather strange. All the synthetic feminist supposedly gener neutral terms all are much closer to 'she' then 'he'. Hän is far to close to 'him' to make a radical feminist happy.

What synthetic feminist ones are there? Genuine curiosity. I've only heard a couple of trans* ones like "ze."