English for foreigners

[Jack of Spades]

The complaint about hän seems rather strange. All the synthetic feminist supposedly gener neutral terms all are much closer to 'she' then 'he'. Hän is far to close to 'him' to make a radical feminist happy.

I believe the complaint was about the very fact of "stripping away genders", not so much about the pronouncing?

 

[Jack of Spades]

.nvm I missread it

 

[Jack of Spades]

• Proper adjectives

Thanks, that was the piece of puzzle I was missing apparently. Theres again no equivalent for that in my language. I just googled stuff about it and I believe I get the rough idea. I gotta give the "proper noun/adjective" stuff some more reading.

 

[Henrytheeighth]

This is both venting thread for those who are not native english speakers and place to ask for grammar advices. I can google most of the grammar stuff, but sometimes I just don't get it if someone doesn't explain it.

Sooo, here comes my points:

1) I am frustrated, symphatize me please. What's in my head doesn't come out in my typing, it feels like being a bit handicapped.

Now, that's off my chest, the actual technical questions:

2) If I want to talk about someone whos gender is unknown or can be either, how am I supposed to express it? Having to say "he or she" feels like a lot of work to type everytime. In my language there are no he or she, it's just "hän". This is sometimes confusing for me. What's the best way to talk about someone who's gender is not relevant to the topic and can be either?

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

It's quite simple actually. Just use your own language, mix some English in and if it's not good and people don't understand you you arrogantly say: hey you go do some effort to speak my language!

 

[Jack of Spades]

It's quite simple actually. Just use your own language, mix some English in and if it's not good and people don't understand you you arrogantly say: hey you go do some effort to speak my language!

Me see no idea good me say you laiskuri! Good opiskelu bad laiskuri.

 

[Owlette]

This is both venting thread for those who are not native english speakers and place to ask for grammar advices. I can google most of the grammar stuff, but sometimes I just don't get it if someone doesn't explain it.

Sooo, here comes my points:

1) I am frustrated, symphatize me please. What's in my head doesn't come out in my typing, it feels like being a bit handicapped.

Now, that's off my chest, the actual technical questions:

2) If I want to talk about someone whos gender is unknown or can be either, how am I supposed to express it? Having to say "he or she" feels like a lot of work to type everytime. In my language there are no he or she, it's just "hän". This is sometimes confusing for me. What's the best way to talk about someone who's gender is not relevant to the topic and can be either?

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

Well, it looks like everyone answered the same way I would have answered. For #3, I'd only answer it if a close friend asked me or a family member. Otherwise it's pretty much a greeting and you respond with, "I'm good, how are you?" It's too bad it's become just a greeting though. I'd rather people only ask me if they actually cared.

 

[HopeS746]

Actually, I don't think english is very difficult language. Also, it's very close to many european languages, like germany, or especially swedish. Swedish and english are so close that I can imagine that it's easyish to learn english for a swede and other way around.

.

It's because they come from the same root just like Spanish French and Italian are similar they come from the same root

 

[HopeS746]

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

Well when people say hello hey or hi I usually say one o them back but when they say how are you I answer the depending on who it is I say 'what about you' or 'how are you' back

 

[Jack of Spades]

It's because they come from the same root just like Spanish French and Italian are similar they come from the same root

Yup, Germanic Languages. They're rooted on the language that the tribes, who pillaged ancient Rome were speaking.

 

[Catherineanne]

This is both venting thread for those who are not native english speakers and place to ask for grammar advices. I can google most of the grammar stuff, but sometimes I just don't get it if someone doesn't explain it.

Sooo, here comes my points:

1) I am frustrated, symphatize me please. What's in my head doesn't come out in my typing, it feels like being a bit handicapped.

That is because we think faster than we type. Unless we type very, very fast ...

Now, that's off my chest, the actual technical questions:

2) If I want to talk about someone whos gender is unknown or can be either, how am I supposed to express it? Having to say "he or she" feels like a lot of work to type everytime. In my language there are no he or she, it's just "hän". This is sometimes confusing for me. What's the best way to talk about someone who's gender is not relevant to the topic and can be either?

When typing informally I sometimes say s/he. That saves time. In formal communication the correct form is 'he or she'. In informal communication you can get away with 'they', but it is a bit awkward because then the verb won't be right. If in doubt, use the formal version.

3) This is not relative to CF communication really but another thing I don't understand is when people say "How are you?" or some similar question, is it just a greeting like "hello" or are you actually supposed to answer it? In my language, if I ask it, it's actual question but english speakers seem to sometimes use it as a greeting. But because it's also sometimes used as an actual question and the other party answers, I have no way of telling when I'm supposed to answer it.

The formal version of this in British English is to say, 'How do you do?'. The correct reply to this is, 'How do you do?' It is not intended as an actual question but a way of beginning a conversation; what is called by linguists phatic communication; a kind of social convention of how to begin. It works to let each side know that they are dealing with someone who understands the conventions of conversation, if you like.

This has changed into a whole series of different forms; some people say 'Hello' (best reply in return; 'Hello'), some say, 'How are you?' (best reply; 'Fine thanks. How about you?' 'Fine'. Saying 'Good' will identify the respondent as speaking American rather than British English, because good is a quality of character, not of health. In British English 'I am good' really means something along the lines of I am honest rather than I am well.

If you are asked this question by a total stranger the answer is always 'Fine'. If asked by a close friend you can go into more detail. Gradations in between will fall within this spectrum.

 

[Catherineanne]

#2 they

#3 Most just say good or I am fine. Its just a greeting like "Hello" but a little more long winded. It is also a conversation starter. Where "hello" is something you say as you pass somebody "How are you" is more of a conversation starter. Another way to start a conversation would be to ask about the weather or "How bout them Yankees".

Yes, you could talk about the weather, but bear in mind that convention demands that people do not directly disagree when talking about the weather. Even if it is blowing a blizzard and your extremities are turning blue, if someone says, 'It is rather mild today!' you reply something along the lines of, 'For the time of year, certainly.'

Those who disagree about the weather will never know, but they will be quietly marked as not quite part of the collective that is English speakers.

 

[Catherineanne]

Isn't "they" a plural? Does it work when I talk about single person?

They is indeed a plural.

The alternative is to risk getting the gender wrong, or to call people 'it'.

 

[Catherineanne]

It is plural but in informal communication English speakers use it all the time when they want to talk about "he or she." It's not really considered proper usage yet, but it's not really improper in informal communication either.

As for #3, I always thought of it as a question but apparently it depends on where you are at and the situation. Good luck with that!

'They' as a non determinate third person singular is not new. Jane Austen used it.

 

[Catherineanne]

There also seem to be different rules for using capital letters in english, than in finnish. This is really no biggie, but I bet I'm never going to get it right. It seems to me that in english, you're supposed to use capital letters more often than in finnish. For example, Christian is not written with capital letter in my language.

Yes, proper nouns are always capitalised, and some adjectives are capitalised to show a form of respect. For example, I would capitalise Finnish, to show respect for both Finland and its language. Writing in English without capitalising English is a real faux pas.

 

[Catherineanne]

Everybody I know that speaks a foreign language says that learning English is very hard but yet just about anywhere you go in this world you will find somebody who speaks it.

My brother who was in the U.S. Navy for many years told me that no mater were you go you will find somebody who speaks English. He said that they know English speaking people usually have money and if you want their money you better speak their language.

The basics of English are fairly straightforward because of the lack of inflection. Acquiring real proficiency is probably a different matter, but generally I think native English speakers are a tolerant lot; we will try our best to understand what is said.

 

[Catherineanne]

Depends on if it's a named, specific person or more in the general sense.

Yes, and "they" is technically grammatically incorrect. Lots of people still use it in informal speech anyway.

Often, it's not a completely literal question. I do hear that American culture is an aberration when that question is asked, that it is meant literally just about everywhere else.

There is no such thing as 'grammatically incorrect'. Linguists will tend to talk in terms of a particular usage being 'acceptable' or 'unacceptable', and this can vary depending on context.

American Standard English is not the same as British Standard English, but it is not an aberration. It is just different.

 

[Catherineanne]

There is an idea, first I'm going to lobby corrupt politicians around the globe to push for adopting "hän" in english language with the scandic letter in it, then I'm going to sell scandic keyboards to all 400 million native english speakers and accuse everyone who doesn't buy one of being politically incorrect chauvinist! I'll be rich!

There is probably very little point trying. Pronouns are very resistant to change.

 

[Catherineanne]

Yes, it's the most spoken non-native language in the world. Thanks to british empire and american leading role in developing computers.

Given that the US derives from British Imperialism that is one category, not two.

Aviation is also a factor; English is the international language of aviation. And broadcasting another; the BBC gets everywhere.

 

[Jack of Spades]

The basics of English are fairly straightforward because of the lack of inflection.

Yes, that's excactly what makes it relatively easy. Along with the thing that it's written with Latin alphabets, unlike Russian or Chinese for example. My attempt to learn Russian was doomed from the start because of the Cyrillic letters.

For comparsion, Finnish grammar is all about inflections, there are no words like "of" "from" etc, so every single word has like 500 different inflections to cover all the possible variations of usage.

Example,
Eng: "One of our dogs was also being occasionally sick."
Fin: "Yksi koiristammekin sairasteli"

It's just three words vs english nine words, but alot of inflection to shoehorn the same amount of information into those few words. The basic forms are "koira" = "dog" and "sairas" = "sick".

That of course makes english much simpler to learn, because once you can form a sentence with some particular words, it's likely the same with some others, just replace the key words. In languages with alot of inflections, it's much more work to figure out all the inflections of all the words involved.

 

[HopeS746]

That is because we think faster than we type. Unless we type very, very fast ...



When typing informally I sometimes say s/he. That saves time. In formal communication the correct form is 'he or she'. In informal communication you can get away with 'they', but it is a bit awkward because then the verb won't be right. If in doubt, use the formal version.



The formal version of this in British English is to say, 'How do you do?'. The correct reply to this is, 'How do you do?' It is not intended as an actual question but a way of beginning a conversation; what is called by linguists phatic communication; a kind of social convention of how to begin. It works to let each side know that they are dealing with someone who understands the conventions of conversation, if you like.

This has changed into a whole series of different forms; some people say 'Hello' (best reply in return; 'Hello'), some say, 'How are you?' (best reply; 'Fine thanks. How about you?' 'Fine'. Saying 'Good' will identify the respondent as speaking American rather than British English, because good is a quality of character, not of health. In British English 'I am good' really means something along the lines of I am honest rather than I am well.

If you are asked this question by a total stranger the answer is always 'Fine'. If asked by a close friend you can go into more detail. Gradations in between will fall within this spectrum.

Is this really formally because I'm English and as far as I know throughout all of school good has never meant honest it's meant a good person as in you are nice or you are feeling well so......