EnemyPartyII is going to renounce her homosexuality

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brightmorningstar

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To Haolhope,
Strange, neither I or anyone else I know grew up thinking homosexuality was morally wrong. Its not "common sense" or ingrained into humans that its wrong it depends on how you were raised, and the society around you as a whole.
As understanding of sex doesn’t come to children under the age of seven you grew up to seven not thinking about homosexuality or homosexuality. Yet children under seven usually have a male or female reproductive organ developing. They don’t have heterosexual or homosexual organs.

All the more reason therefore that children are raised according to function, and not dysfunction. This is the reason gay couples are not suitable to raise children.

It not at all dysfunctional for humans to have homosexual intimacy as despite the claims made otherwise the many happy sexually active homosexual couples out there prove that two people of the same-sex fit together just fine, to claim otherwise is nonsense and just ignoring reality.
I didn’t say people couldn’t be happy in dysfunction, but happiness doesn’t define function.
 
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Zaac

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So... does this mean you CAN'T come up with a logically consistent reason to think why God wouldn't approve of mutually consenting, loving homosexual relationships?



This means I'm not looking for one cause His reasons why HE wouldn't approve ain't lost.:D


If you could just admit that to yourself, maybe we'd all live in a slightly better world

Yeah, legitimizing fornication is gonna make this a better world. You keep doing what you want. God is gonna judge ya by His Law no matter how non-literl you think it to be.

And I'm not expecting this world to get better. My Bible tells me that it's supposed to get worst. So I fully expect fornicators to continue to make excuses to justify their fornication.:)
 
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HaloHope

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To Haolhope,
As understanding of sex doesn’t come to children under the age of seven you grew up to seven not thinking about homosexuality or homosexuality. Yet children under seven usually have a male or female reproductive organ developing. They don’t have heterosexual or homosexual organs.
All the more reason therefore that children are raised according to function, and not dysfunction. This is the reason gay couples are not suitable to raise children.


Gender and sexuality are two completely unrelated things. Pretty basic fact really that. Whats between your legs is completely unrelated to whom or who not you may be attracted to in the future.

My partner and I have been thinking about adopting recently now you mention gay couples raising children. Im pretty glad that you have no say over whether or not we will be suitable candidates for doing so, and only sane people who know gender does not effect child rearing at all will make that judgement without even considering our sexuality. Hooray for sane adoption laws in the UK!


I didn’t say people couldn’t be happy in dysfunction, but happiness doesn’t define function.

If something feels right then it is functioning correctly. Again, simple. Two female sexual organs certainly fit together very well and function fine well, I know from personal experience. Therefore I know it to be true, and you false.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Halohope,


Gender and sexuality are two completely unrelated things. Pretty basic fact really that. Whats between your legs is completely unrelated to whom or who not you may be attracted to in the future.
Well you don’t need to tell me as I referred to sex and sexuality as two different things.


The placement if children with dysfunctional same sex ‘couples’ is abuse in my opinion. The laws in the UK are insane as they promote gay couples desires above the wellbeing of the child, by forcing Christian agencies who were happy to defer to participate in the dysfunction. Quite rightly the agencies are shutting down and if the children can’t be placed they can suffer.

If something feels right then it is functioning correctly. Again, simple. Two female sexual organs certainly fit together very well and function fine well, I know from personal experience. Therefore I know it to be true, and you false.
Two adulterers get on well together, that’s why they are adulterers. Your argument is dysfunctional, the function of the vagina is with the penis.

All the more reason therefore that children are raised according to function, and not dysfunction. This is the reason gay couples are not suitable to raise children.
 
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*Starlight*

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Two adulterers get on well together, that’s why they are adulterers. Your argument is dysfunctional, the function of the vagina is with the penis.
All the more reason therefore that children are raised according to function, and not dysfunction. This is the reason gay couples are not suitable to raise children.
Are you saying that if a child is raised by homosexuals, he or she will be homosexual too? That's actually not true. There aren't any studies which prove that statement... it's just a myth.
 
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HaloHope

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To Halohope,


Well you don’t need to tell me as I referred to sex and sexuality as two different things.


But you are relating them together, correct?

The placement if children with dysfunctional same sex ‘couples’ is abuse in my opinion. The laws in the UK are insane as they promote gay couples desires above the wellbeing of the child, by forcing Christian agencies who were happy to defer to participate in the dysfunction. Quite rightly the agencies are shutting down and if the children can’t be placed they can suffer.


I think that any allegedly Christian charity that stops allowing children to be placed in loving homes instead in a "throwing their toys out of the pram" manner such as certain charities here in the UK are behaving dont really deserve to be called "Christian" or "charity" in the first place. "Oh noes we have to give the kids into loving homes that we are biased against! QUICK ABANDON THE CHILDREN AS WE CANT HAVE OUR WAY!" very loving and Christian. Bigotry at its finest.

Fortunately your opinion dosent match what society has decided is right, children should be allowed a loving home, its abuse to deny them one just because the couple is of the same-sex.

Two adulterers get on well together, that’s why they are adulterers. Your argument is dysfunctional, the function of the vagina is with the penis.


Adulterers get on well together because they fit the word defenition of adulterer... right... . There are plenty of gay women out there who know their vagina isnt meant for a penis to go anywhere near thank you. YOUR argument ignores this FACT.

All the more reason therefore that children are raised according to function, and not dysfunction. This is the reason gay couples are not suitable to raise children.

Nonsense.
 
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MercyBurst

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Strange, neither I or anyone else I know grew up thinking homosexuality was morally wrong. Its not "common sense" or ingrained into humans that its wrong it depends on how you were raised, and the society around you as a whole.

It not at all dysfunctional for humans to have homosexual intimacy as despite the claims made otherwise the many happy sexually active homosexual couples out there prove that two people of the same-sex fit together just fine, to claim otherwise is nonsense and just ignoring reality.

Well I made the same argument about my drug abuse -- where does the Bible say it's immoral to take LSD, barbituates, cocaine, opium, hashish, amphetimines, marijuana, and other mind-altering drugs?

Somebody please show me chapter and verse, excluding the Pauline epistles, the OT law that no longer applies, yadda, yadda - you know the same arguments you hear on the DOH forum.

Deep down, I knew it was wrong, but I thought I wasn't any worse than the next person. My substance abuse was no worse than drinking booze which was legalized.

When I slept with women I wasn't doing anything wrong -- God made us to have sex... All the same stuff you hear at this forum.

And oh yeah the luvin monogamous relationships between cohabs -- well why didn't they get married FIRST if they were in it for love? Some of them stayed together for years -- but sorry, they never would have convinced me they were christian.


So tell me why I should believe two lesbians in some kind of relationship of their own choosing can be credible witnesses for Christ. As a total reprobate I knew better than this. As a born-again Christian, why would I now believe it?
 
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MercyBurst

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Mercyburst, I aplaud your honesty, I sincerely do, and I genuinely wish you all the blessings and hapiness in the world... so please don't take this as a personal attack, it is genuinely intended as constructive criticism and I hope you can accept it as such...

can you see that if you are saying things like this "I was shacking up with them and had no respect for myself either as a substance abuser and fornicator." then the problem isn't with homosexuals, its with you?

At the time I was doing these things I was proud of myself, much as you are about your gay relationship, but something was missing in my life. I later found out it was God's spirit that was missing in my life.

Hear me out, you admit to having problems with yourself, and you are associating homosexuals with those feelings because you are projecting what you percieve as your flaws onto others.

Actually I lived a life of debauchery and substance abuse, and was proud of it at the time. I'd brag on the chicks I'd been to bed with -- proving what a man I was to the other guys, and they'd do likewise. Just about every guy wanted to think he was god's blessing for women.

I hope and pray eventually you overcome this,

I overcame it the day I got saved and found out what a waste my life was living for pleasure.

and are able to respect both yourself and other people on their merits, rather than condemn them on percieved shortcomings.

I condemn myself for my own shortcomings, but with a knew life in Christ I don't have to worry about it anymore. That was 27 years ago -- longer than you've been alive.

Get help if you need it, just try to seek help from people who will accept your flaws and those of others,

No problem.. Christ fixed that. Thanks for the suggestion, but Chrsit is my justification now.

rather than from people whose idea of help is to make themselves feel better by putting others down, which I fear is what your current coping mechanism is.

There is a temptation to do that, but I'm being totally honest with myself. It's not a better-than-somebody feeling, as I judge myself to the same standard and find myself guilty. I would feel very ashamed without Christ as my justification. He is the only thing that gives me any self-respect after the way I lived.

As far as a two-year consenting relationship goes -- I never believed it was christian whether it was opposite sex or same-sex. That's just the way it is. If you came to me 30 years ago and told me you were a christian involved in a lesbian relationship, I would have said something like "yeah, and I'm a christian dope head."

Can you show me in the Bible where substance abuse is wrong? There are verses in the Bible that are pretty clearly against gay sex to a lot of people that read them, but nadda for pot-smoking zombies like I was. Nobody can produce such a verse for argument -- but my conscience knows it is wrong, and likewise for other immorality. I could line up with all the justification arguments you have for gay sex, and then some, to justify my substance abuse like "it's not in the Bible", "I'm only doing it to myself", "God made drugs so it must be ok", "everybody else is doing it to", "I'm as good as a person that drinks a lot and that's socially acceptable" etc etc etc.

Here's the bottom line


Before I became a Christian I'd occasionaly go to church with my substance abusing bi-sexual girlfriend and feel pretty good about my life, and pretty good about going to church. If you asked me if I was a christian I'd say "well I went to church last sunday." I was doing it mostly to make her parents feel better about me.

But what Christ-honoring testimony would I have, except to those that wanted to do the same things, and defend their pet sins like mine? A half Christian, that appeals mostly to those that share his /her pet sins, is no Christian at all. That's what I was.

So tell me why a same-sex-practicing-christian is a better example of Christ than a so-called christian-substance-abuser like I was.
 
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MercyBurst

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One is about love, the other is about substance abuse?

Substance abuse is about the freedom to choose.

So, are you telling me a "christian lesbian" has more credibility than a "christian substance-abuser"? Ordained church ministers can drink booze, but only the ECUSA has ever ordained a same-sex practicing gay person. Furthermore, booze is legal in every state, and gay marriage is not.

Booze is just another mind-altering substance, and even Jesus turned water into wine. So it must have been ok for me to continue living my life as a pot-smoking zombie. Jesus never condemned anyone for smoking pot, but we can find several verses in the bible that do not read well for same-sex-sex -- verses that must be explained away. There are no such verses for dope-users.
 
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MercyBurst

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It wasn't alcoholic though.
Thanks,
TT

Then it was grape juice, not "wine". This is kind of like the argument about the meaning of the word "arsenkoites", where the gay side says it doesn't apply to loving monogamous relationships. Jesus made the only wine that didn't have alchohol in it according to you.(Actually I agree with you but for the sake of illustration I'm defending a pet sin). ;)

Jesus made wine, and I used to drink a lot and do drugs (which Jesus never condemned), but the wine was for a straight marriage not a gay one. So why would a "same-sex-practicing christian" have any more credibility than the "christian pot-head" that I was.
 
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MercyBurst

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1) No such thing as non-alcoholic wine. 2) Evidence Jesus turned water in to grape juice?

So Jesus turned water into wine and justified my life as a former substance abuser. So does that give credibility to my former life as a "christian substance abuser"? Why is a "gay-sex practicing christian" any more credible?

In addition my substance-abusing girlfriend was a bisexual. If I had transgendered myself to love her as a female instead of a male, would that bring honor to the name of Christ and help other people believe I was living for Christ?

Do you understand why I have a credibility issue with so-called "gay christians" that practice same-sex?
 
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Jase

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So Jesus turned water into wine and justified my life as a former substance abuser. So does that give credibility to my former life as a "christian substance abuser"? Why is a "gay-sex practicing christian" any more credible?
Drinking is not substance abuse or a sin. Getting drunk all the time and drinking in excess is. Jesus turning water in to wine no more justified your substance abuse, as his breaking bread justifies obesity.

In addition my substance-abusing girlfriend was a bisexual. If I had transgendered myself to love her as a female instead of a male, would that bring honor to the name of Christ and help other people believe I was living for Christ?
This makes no sense. First of all, transgender has nothing to do with sexuality. Gender identity and sexual orientation are different. Second, you weren't born transgendered so why would you even pose such a question? Being transgendered is definately not a sin. Which is another wrench in the engine for fundamentalists opposed to different sexual orientations. A transgender male being attracted to other males, doesn't necessarily make him gay.

Do you understand why I have a credibility issue with so-called "gay christians" that practice same-sex?
Nope, I don't. Because your arguments make no sense.
 
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AetheriusLamia

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I don't think anyone is going to convince you, OP, because by your own words you make it clear that you're not willing to be convinced. You have instigated a false dichotomy between "human author's words" and "God's words" -- the Bible is the inspired word of God, thus God is claimed as the author, because the Holy Spirit inspired the human authors to write what they did. Similarly, prophets throughout history have spoken for God -- that they are the ones speaking, and not God, in no way detracts from the fact that it is God's message, God's word.

That being said, the Bible is not "some 2000 year old document written by patriarchal men", but a living document interpreted today by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is particularly present in the Catholic Church, which states in no uncertain terms that homosexuality is not a sin -- being tempted is not itself sinful -- but that homosexual actions (intercourse etc.) are. Likewise, the temptation itself is disordered, like alcoholism or any other temptation to sin, but it is no fault of the individual that they are so tempted.

However, it appears you have locked yourself in the box of "my translation of the Bible is my authority and my authority alone," which is a rather terrible prison; thus, you will likely reject that the Holy Spirit is present in the Catholic Church, and thus reject the Catholic Church's teachings. (Also, since the Church is a primary source of communication with the Holy Spirit, it is possible that you could be attempting to interpret the Bible without the Holy Spirit, which necessarily leads to failure.) It is very sad to me, just as when I see Christians who insist that "the earth is only six thousand years old" because of that prison, "science is wrong because what I think about the Bible I'm holding to be right," etc ... (In reality, the same God who gives us religion and faith also gives us science and reason, and God does not contradict himself.)

The Church also has much to say about marriage, and God's design for humans to be sexually complementary to each other -- it takes a man to complete a woman, etc. All of that said, I don't think it has ever said that any relationship is sinful: I have never heard that living chastely with your same-sex lover is wrong. Indeed, I think there is Biblical evidence for creating a covenant before God regarding your relationship; see David and Jonathan in the Old Testament. However, including that covenant, I have seen no Christian basis for homosexual actions, i.e. sex between the couple. (Likewise, that covenant between David and Jonathan is never referred to as 'marriage'.)

I hope some of this post has helped.
 
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