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End Times

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Xeno32

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Hi

I'm not a forums person in general or rather. not a people's person to be more honest. But I do have a question I'd like to ask.

I work in a Christian environment and both my bosses take their religion very seriously, the rest of the the other employees are also Christians to a greater or lesser extent. I'm the only non-christian in my work (its a small company)

We normally have meetings on Friday mornings, and after the meeting they normally have a little bible study session (I think that's what you call it) where they pick a topic and discuss it for awhile. the other day, the topic was end times. Normally at this time, I zone into my own little world and never really give the discussions my full attention. But even I could see that my one boss was certain the end times was near.

Why is this?

I know I could just go ask him, since every person perspective is different but for various reasons I'd prefer not start any christian related topics with said person.

So let me rephrase the question I think, what is your take on the end times?
 

andreha

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speculation on end times, hunting for clues and predictions are a huge hobby amongst some christians and an obsession among others. most of us, however, accept the notion that the end is known only to God but that we should live our lives as if it were near.

Wel said. :thumbsup:
 
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theVirginian

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So its all speculation...
Not entirely. The two events that are necessary for the end time prophecies to start unfolding are the creation of an independent state of Israel (1948) and enough of Jerusalem being under the control of Israel in order to rebuild the temple.

The speculation is from trying to fit today's news into the prophecies that haven't happened yet. Situations can change literally overnight these days. I think we Christians are going to be surprised how this plays out in relation to what has been taught for the last 60 years.
 
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Sketcher

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My take on it is that Jesus won't come again until after the 7-year tribulation, which will be a horrible, global persecution of Christians. I believe that a pre-tribulation rapture, such as what the Left Behind series is about, is relatively new and a contradiction of what the Bible says in Revelation. But nobody knows for sure. The end time prophesies are vague enough to keep each generation on its toes, which is precisely how we should live. The end could come, or we could die early. We need to live in a God-pleasing manner accordingly.
 
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Adoniram

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Mt. 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Jesus tells us that no one knows the day and hour of His return, but He also tells us that we can be aware of the general time period by observing the "signs of the times." And we are urged to look for His coming.

Mt. 16
1 Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; 3 and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.

Now, in this rebuke of the Pharisees and Sadducees, He was referring to their failure to recognize that the Old Testament prophesies pointed to Him as the Messiah. The lesson that today's Christians can take from this passage is that we should study the Scriptures so that we can recognize the hints it gives as to the general state of the world before His Second Coming.

What hints? Jesus gives us some.

Mt. 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


Many will say, correctly, that there have always been wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, etc. But Paul compares the nearing of the end times to the increasing frequency and intensity of the labor pains that a woman experiences as she nears the time of her delivery.

Rom. 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

He's talking about "glory" being "revealed" in those who believe, which will happen when Christ returns. He's talking about creation being delivered from the curse it fell under when Adam sinned, which will happen when Christ returns. He says the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs until now. Labor pains grow more frequent and more intense as the time of delivery draws near.

So, going back to the Mt. 24 passage, when we see these things (wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, false christs, lawlessness, etc.), which have happened throughout history, happening with greater frequency and intensity, i.e., like labor pains, we will know that the time of Christ's return is drawing nearer. It can be demonstrated that we are seeing more intense wars, more frequent earthquakes, etc., etc. And with the advent of television and the internet, we are seeing the gospel preached around the world more than ever, but we are also seeing more false christs, more lawlessness, etc., than ever. The whole earth is groaning, and delivery is near.

Also from Mt. 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

In Biblical prophesy, the fig tree represents the nation of Israel. As was pointed out in an earlier post, Israel was reconstituted as a nation in 1948. This in itself fulfills OT prophesy, but since then, we have seen the nation flourish and grow..."put forth leaves." The time is near--at the doors!

My take on the end times? I enjoy studying prophesy, especially end times prophesy...not that it consumes my every endeavor. But, I find it fascinating to see God at work in the world today, in not only the good that is done, but in setting up the pieces in preparation for Christ's return. I am filled with wonder and awe, my faith is strengthened, and my hope is refreshed as I see prophesy fulfilled before my very eyes.
 
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drich0150

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Not entirely. The two events that are necessary for the end time prophecies to start unfolding are the creation of an independent state of Israel (1948) and enough of Jerusalem being under the control of Israel in order to rebuild the temple.

The speculation is from trying to fit today's news into the prophecies that haven't happened yet. Situations can change literally overnight these days. I think we Christians are going to be surprised how this plays out in relation to what has been taught for the last 60 years.

:thumbsup:

Kinda like how the Jews were taken off guard by Jesus.

I think it pleases God to show us the foolishness behind all of our prideful predictions.
 
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ebia

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Hey? Did someone just ignore vs. 34? From the NIV:



Iow, Jesus was wrong.
Depends what "things" you think it refers to. It's perfectly standard when speaking about escatalogical events to telescope together final end-time stuff, and the corresponding events in the immediate (or some other) future?
 
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Xeno32

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Thanks for all the insightful replies. Making me a little curios to say the least. I mean, who wouldn't be?

After searching the web for awhile, I come across a very interesting website concerning the end times. I'll quote a few sentences from it. I would just like to know how accurate these statements are.

Official source The End Times

----

The Rapture
Popular Opinion
Rapture (1) means "to raise up." Many U.S. Protestants believe, teach and spread to other countries the heretical idea that God will rapture or raise up Christians and thus remove them from the final tribulation described in Revelation. Some also teach that the Rapture will give people a second chance to repent before Jesus returns a second time.

True Teaching
Revelation does not teach a Rapture of Christians. God will not remove Christians from the earth so that they might avoid suffering. Instead, Revelation teaches that God will preserve His people in the face of persecution and suffering (Rev. 3:10; 14:12). Since Christ will resurrect all believers and unbelievers on Judgment Day, there will be no second chance for repentance (Rev. 11:18; 20:11-15. See pages 24-25).

The Differences it makes for You
God's Word does not teach the Rapture. Nowhere does our heavenly Father say He will remove anyone from the tribulation spoken of in Revelation; however, as the End Times occur, your gracious heavenly Father promises to give you all the strength needed to face even the most difficult suffering. "If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:31-32).

The Seven-Year Tribulation
Popular Opinion
Tribulation means "suffering." Revelation 7:14 warns that God's people will face "great tribulation" before Christ returns. Some interpreters argue that this great tribulation has not yet started. They teach that the tribulation is a future event that will last only seven years.

True Teaching
The book of Revelation teaches the great tribulation neither as a future event nor as a seven-year period. Instead, the great tribulation refers to the persecution and suffering God's people have, and always will, face in this corrupt world (Acts 14:22; Rev. 1:9).

The Differences it makes for You
So long as you live on this earth, the devil will continually strive to deceive and destroy you (1 Pet. 5:8). But Christ has defeated the devil! Though you may face suffering, be fully assured that God will help you through your most difficult times and, when Jesus returns, He will "wipe every tear from [your] eyes," and take you to be with Him in Paradise, forever! (Rev. 7:17).

 
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cateye

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Depends what "things" you think it refers to. It's perfectly standard when speaking about escatalogical events to telescope together final end-time stuff, and the corresponding events in the immediate (or some other) future?

Really? So what method do you use to distinguish them?
 
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Adoniram

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To put it bluntly, the authors of that website are mistaken. They have taken the book of Revelation, an admittedly hard and confusing book to understand, and taken their stand on these things based only on that book. The problem is that to understand Revelation, you have to look at other prophesies found throughout the Bible, particularly Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel in the OT, and many of Jesus' and Paul's teaching in the NT. When you look at all these other things, you will find that the timeline that this website has labeled as false is indeed the true one.

They are wrong from the very first point in support of their own timeline, and a later statement contradicts what they say here:

Christ Bound Satan
By His death and resurrection, Jesus has "bound" or "cast out" Satan.
Rev. 20:1-2;
They didn't go far enough here, needing to look at verse three also.

Rev. 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

If Satan is "bound or cast out", from Christ's death onward, how is it that he is still deceiving the world? Their later statement-

The Differences it makes for You
So long as you live on this earth, the devil will continually strive to deceive and destroy you (1 Pet. 5:8).

is in contradiction to their premise in point one of their timeline. Either Revelation 20 is correct, and Satan is bound and deceiving no more, or Peter is correct, and the devil is continually deceiving even now as we live on this earth.
Both passages cannot be true...unless they have Satan's binding in the wrong place on their timeline. The rest of their timeline is just as skewed. OT prophesy indicates a literal kingdom, fulfilling God's promises to Abraham and David.


I could go on but I think you should be able to get the point.
 
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Adoniram

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cateye said:
Hey? Did someone just ignore vs. 34? From the NIV:
34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Iow, Jesus was wrong.

It is evident from verse 33, "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!" that Jesus was referring to the generation that is witness to the events He described in the preceding passages. And, since the people that He delivered those words to has indeed passed away, it is certain that the events He was describing were future to that generation. In essence, His message in Mt. 24 is more pertinent to this future generation (many believe it is the current generation, including myself) than it was to those He originally spoke it to...as is much of Biblical prophesy. Sorry to disappoint you...Jesus was not wrong.
 
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Xeno32

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Either Revelation 20 is correct, and Satan is bound and deceiving no more, or Peter is correct, and the devil is continually deceiving even now as we live on this earth. Both passages cannot be true...unless they have Satan's binding in the wrong place on their timeline. The rest of their timeline is just as skewed. OT prophesy indicates a literal kingdom, fulfilling God's promises to Abraham and David.

Thank you, still a little confusing, but I'll read it though again. First going to go make a cup of hot coffee :) just got home, and yearning for that promising coffee

I've already started formulating a list of questions in my head, I want to you, since I'm really new to all this. and my knowledge about this is limited to say the least.

~

Edit

on second thought, a old saying just occurred to me. Rather say nothing and let them think your a fool, then open your mouth and confirm it.

I'll rather go do a little research before I ask my questions ;)
 
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ebia

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Really? So what method do you use to distinguish them?
Do you mean given a passage like the Olivet discourse how do you separete the immediate from the ultimate? You're not really supposed to - that's not what its trying to do. What it does is connect the immediate to the ultimate future.

So that "this generation" will see Christ crucified, risen, ascended. They will see Rome come down on Jerusalem like a ton of bricks and the Temple destroyed, and all the lamentations that go with that. AND all that is connected to the final ultimate hope.

The purpose of a discourse like that is not to give a timetable of events, but to explain what is going to happen in terms of the final, ultimate, expectation.
 
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ebia

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Thanks for all the insightful replies. Making me a little curios to say the least. I mean, who wouldn't be?

After searching the web for awhile, I come across a very interesting website concerning the end times. I'll quote a few sentences from it. I would just like to know how accurate these statements are.

Official source The End Times

----

The Rapture
Popular Opinion
Rapture (1) means "to raise up." Many U.S. Protestants believe, teach and spread to other countries the heretical idea that God will rapture or raise up Christians and thus remove them from the final tribulation described in Revelation. Some also teach that the Rapture will give people a second chance to repent before Jesus returns a second time.

True Teaching
Revelation does not teach a Rapture of Christians. God will not remove Christians from the earth so that they might avoid suffering. Instead, Revelation teaches that God will preserve His people in the face of persecution and suffering (Rev. 3:10; 14:12). Since Christ will resurrect all believers and unbelievers on Judgment Day, there will be no second chance for repentance (Rev. 11:18; 20:11-15. See pages 24-25).

The Differences it makes for You
God's Word does not teach the Rapture. Nowhere does our heavenly Father say He will remove anyone from the tribulation spoken of in Revelation; however, as the End Times occur, your gracious heavenly Father promises to give you all the strength needed to face even the most difficult suffering. "If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:31-32).

The Seven-Year Tribulation
Popular Opinion
Tribulation means "suffering." Revelation 7:14 warns that God's people will face "great tribulation" before Christ returns. Some interpreters argue that this great tribulation has not yet started. They teach that the tribulation is a future event that will last only seven years.

True Teaching
The book of Revelation teaches the great tribulation neither as a future event nor as a seven-year period. Instead, the great tribulation refers to the persecution and suffering God's people have, and always will, face in this corrupt world (Acts 14:22; Rev. 1:9).

The Differences it makes for You
So long as you live on this earth, the devil will continually strive to deceive and destroy you (1 Pet. 5:8). But Christ has defeated the devil! Though you may face suffering, be fully assured that God will help you through your most difficult times and, when Jesus returns, He will "wipe every tear from [your] eyes," and take you to be with Him in Paradise, forever! (Rev. 7:17).
The bit you've quoted looks pretty mainstream. Of course you'll get a diversity of opinion - if there weren't some off-course understandings of Revelations out there there wouldn't be a need for correcting them.

That said, I don't know that the piece is a terribly good explanation.

You'd do better to read something like Suprised by Hope (Tom Wright).
 
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