Encounter with Mormon missionaries

[Serapha]

Believe me, ALL of anti-mormonism is based on "NOT getting it all", so they make FALSE judgements and conclusions from "incomplete" information.

It's just like the person who started this post, instead of TRULLY trying to understand the Church, they instead MUST get "their" opinion across, and understanding anothers opinion simply isn't important to them, because they are SO CONSUMBED with what "they" believe is truth and telling people about it, that they have no real interest in the discovery of the Ultimate Truths by sincerely exploring other beliefs.

Hi there!



Two points....


1) You cannot judge the intentions of the poster.... that takes it "personal".

2) When "I" don't get it all, when I don't have all of the information, then correct me, okay? And I reserve the same right.

~malaka~

 

[bruiser]

Yeah, thats right. The old secret rituals thing. Seems I remember somewher in the the book of mormon saying to have secret rituals is a sin. But then again, your church really has never followed the rules set forth in there.This is just a nice way of being able to pass over the topic because it presents a real problem. Tell me, did you go through the temple before 1990 when it was drastically changed to be more P.C.?

The Bible (and Book of Mormon) has countless instances of secrets, both good (sacred things) and bad (wickedness) being kept. The Lord counseled some things to be kept hidden, others revealed, and others exposed or condemned. My words are not intended to be a gloss over, just represent a commandment that I intend to follow.

 

[fatboys]

But isn't being consumed with a passion to tell others about Mormon beliefs and how others are incorrect also something Mormons seem to be doing quite a bit of? You are accusing Christians of doing the same thing members of your church, especially missionaries, do.

If you want to tell others how you enjoy being a Mormon and how that has helped you, fine. You have been given free will. However, in my home false teachings will not be preached, and no I don't believe that makes me close minded.

FB: And they would not have been in your home without invitation. Their purpose is to teach the restoration. They only have two years to do so. As I missionary, I would not want to waste time debating you. It would be a waste of precious time. Not that you are not a worth while person, but that you are not unhappy with what you have. There are millions who are.

I have never "attacked" the Mormon church and I don't believe the guy in the scenario in the first post was doing so either. He was obviously happy with being a Christian and he believes Christianity is the truth. So since he was not interested in coversion to the slightest bit you don't want to talk to him? Isn't that kind of rude? Shouldn't the missionaries have at least also been "open minded" enough to sit and listen and let God work on THEIR hearts about what was being said? But they didn't do that. They were close minded.

FB: Do you believe that the first post in this thread took place? Yes. Was it a recorded meeting so that no embellishment from the first poster could not have come into play? NO. I am sure that if we asked the missionaries what happened, it would be quite a bit different. The poster always remained calm and collected while the missinaries got angry. Could be, but unless we get a hold of those missionaries, we will only have a biased account of the event. The missionaires have ever right to say, Hey mister, you are not interested and we do not have time to waste on you. Have a happy life.

What is it you believe one must do to "get it all"? Agree with your church? Become interested in conversion?

FB: Unless you live the standards you covenant to uphold, then you will never get it. As a non member, you will never get it. You may have knowledge of what we teach, but the spiritual side of it, you will never understand because you don't want to become part of it. So what if you don't get it. You don't believe it. You don't believe there is any truth to it. So why does it mean anything to you?

It seems as though, since the man did not wish to convert and wanted to share what he believes with the Mormons visiting his home, they did not wish to speak with him any longer. If we are to be open to learning about your religion, shouldn't you be open to learning about what we believe and why we disagree? Don't you think we might have some legitimate reasons why we disagree? If a person is really a Christian they are not going to point out the differences in beliefs out of hatred, but rather out of love and concern for your eternal welfare, and even what your life is like here on earth!

FB: Again you don't get it. They are there to teach the restoration of the gospel. He was showing them where they were in error. They do not have time to debate with those who do not wish to listen. He invited them in on the pretense of wanting to learn about the church. They did not go in there on the pretense to anything else but to teach. Deception there. Oh but that is okay for in the name of Jesus.

As a mormon, if someone comes at you with a hostile point of view or begins insulting your beliefs (as in saying "oh you are stupid to believe that"), or outright makes fun of you and your beliefs, then you should probably question whether or not they are really a Christian.

FB: How many here do you question to be Christians?

If they are, they will not meet you with hostility but with care and concern and kindness. Wanting to share our beliefs as Christians with Mormons is not a form of hatred. Do I think you are hateful if you want me to be open to learning about your beliefs or open to conversion? No, I don't think you are being hateful, but if I don't wish to convert to your religion, you should not become upset with me. Even if you don't believe I know all about it, etc. Also, if I (or anyone) have a valid point about an inconsistency within the Mormon church or something I believe to be a false teaching, if you really want people to believe your church is "true" then you need to handle any challenges to your beliefs without getting offended or accusing.

FB: And I have met with some real christians before. Not usually on a board as this, but in a general religious board where thoughts and ideas are expressed. Not many of them left. There are very few on this board that meet that calling.

 

[McCravey]

This whole deal of "I'm right and you are wrong" thing we are doing here seems futile and dangerous.

I once read Fox's Book of Martyrs and read the story of a Captain of the guard of the Catholic Church. He had gutted a young boy who belonged to a family of Christian "Heretics" (modern day protestants) and placed his intestines in his mouth biting them and spitting them out.

On his death bed they asked the old captain if he had anything he wanted to confess before he died. He answered "nothing". They then reminded him of the young boy he had killed. He replied "I am counting on that to gain my crown in Glory". He died shortly later.

Probably the most deceitful thing we can be caught in is being religious.
Christ had his problem with both the religious leaders of his day and with the church of his Father.

Although they argued that they were right and he was wrong, they refused to believe him and killed the Son of God.

I am not sure but we are killing the same Son of God today when we get caught up in this Spirit of Religion, hide the Love of Christ and offend our brothers so easily (even to the point of killing them!)

 

[Living4Him03]

Thanks FB for answering my questions and responding to my post.

If the man acted as though he was interested in conversion when he really was not, that was not right. He should have been upfront from the beginning. I understand they do not want to waste their time...I hear they get very busy on their missions ( I have a good friend who went on a mission and gave us some idea of what it would be like before he left). It is not acceptable to be untruthful in order to get someone to come into your home. I personally would have stopped them at the door if they wished to discuss and if not I would bid them farewell and God bless.

I'm not questioning someone's faith in Christ here specifically (of course, I do not believe Mormons believe in the same Christ and are therefore not Christians ), I'm saying that our actions should show that Christ is in our lives (speaking of the Christ of the bible and Christians). If they do not, you have reason to wonder if that person truly has a personal relationship with Christ.

Why does it mean anything to me? Because I honestly care very deeply about the eternal fate of the Mormon people. I also am concerned about those who have chosen to leave the Mormon church and have become Christians, but are the first in their families to convert, etc. They need support from fellow Christians and they need for us to at least somewhat understand the background they are coming from (the LDS Church). That is why I want to study your religion and as well as other religions. If I am to be a witness to non-Christians who are involved in other religions, I need to know something of those other religions.

McCravey: I would never get to the point where I would kill someone based on disagreement or anything close to that. No acts of violence, etc. First of all that is not the behavior a Christian should exhibit. It is cruel and ugly. Am I being cruel or ugly in questioning Mormon beliefs and wanting to compare them to the bible to see how they hold up? I do not believe that is cruel.

Not discussing or questioning is what is dangerous! As far as being futile, at some point yes it does become futile. Neither person wishes to convert and neither person is ever (or at least at this time) going to agree with the other. As a Christian I can point out the inconsistencies in the book of Mormon, I can compare their scripture to the Bible and point out how it does not add up, I can provide many reasons why I do not believe the Mormon church is Christian. However, as I understand it, it is ultimately up to the Holy Spirit to convict that person of the deception of the Mormon church. One conversation or even several are not going to convince someone whether they are right or wrong.

Last, sometimes these dicussions are just interesting. Who doesn't like to learn and discuss things? If you don't you do not have to read this thread or the others .

 

[rnmomof7]

Speaking for myself, I think you've gone into things that LDS posters in these forums will not discuss. I will not, because the teachings of the temple are sacred to me. However, I will answer to say that the Holy Spirit cannot be counterfeited by Satan. Christ sent the Comforter for this very purpose...

~b

The temple rites are occult , that is why they are "secret"
Following the example of the Masons

 

[Serapha]

Speaking for myself, I think you've gone into things that LDS posters in these forums will not discuss. I will not, because the teachings of the temple are sacred to me. However, I will answer to say that the Holy Spirit cannot be counterfeited by Satan. Christ sent the Comforter for this very purpose...

~b

Hi there!



How untrue.

Just as there is a holy trinity, there is an unholy trinity. Satan mimics everything of God.


Holy Trinity
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

unholy trinity
The anti-christ
The false prophet
Satan himself as the ungodly spirit

An angel is not not always "material", but can be immaterial also, so satan can counterfeit himself as the Holy Spirit...


And there's plenty of examples of "unholy spirits" that are accepted as completely normal and a part or religion or spiritualism.... look at psychics, look at channeling, look at people who try to contact the dead.

Oh yeah, satan's an unholy spirit it itself, and he has deceived billions and trillions of people.

~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

Any helpful suggestions on what else I could have said?

On their first visit Elder Fred and Elder Art, asked me to describe my concept of God.
"My focus is on God’s greatest attribute." I asked them, "Do you know what that attribute is?"

"That would have to be His love", Elder Fred replied.

"That is a good guess, but you are wrong!", I said. "If you turn to Revelation 4:8 you will find the answer."

They read, "They rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty."

"You see, the four beasts do not proclaim God’s love, but His holiness!", I told them. "Since God’s holiness is His most important attribute, it is important that we understand what holiness means. Could you define holiness?"

Elders Fred and Art did not understand what the word holy meant. To help them out I got out my Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible and they discovered that holy means to be separate or set apart.

"My God is separate, distinct, set apart from His creation", I told them. "If holiness means to be different, then the opposite of holiness must mean to be common. Man is common, separated from God, Who alone is holy. Do you know what the Biblical word for common is?", I asked them.

They did not, so I turned them to Ezekiel 22:26. They read, "Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: They have put no difference between the holy and the profane."

"Did you know that the NIV Version of the Bible translates this verse, ‘They do not distinguish between the holy and the common’? The words common and profane can be used interchangeably.", I explained.

"Did you know that the greatest sin one can commit is to profane God, to make Him common?" I asked them. "To profane God is a far more serious sin than even murder or adultery!"

The two elders had a problem with that concept, so I went to the Bible to prove my point. "What was the original sin?", I asked.

"Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit," they told me.

"No, the original sin was committed by Satan," I countered. "It is recorded in Isaiah 14:12-14, ‘How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.’

"Lucifer’s sin was to profane the holiness of God. He then tempted Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, saying, ‘Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil’ (Genesis 3:4-5). Lest we also be deceived by this statement given by Satan, Jesus warns, ‘that there is no truth in him, he is a liar and the father of lies’ (John 8:44)."

I continued, "One of the reasons why I could never join the Mormon church is that the your religion profaned God by saying, "As man is God once was, and as God is, man can become."

I was surprised when Elders Fred and Art returned for a second meeting. This time they wanted to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon was inspired by God.

I asked them, "How do you know that Joseph Smith is a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon comes from God?"

They said that they had prayed before reading the Book of Mormon and God confirmed the truth of the Book of Mormon by the burning in their hearts - comparing their experience with the two men on the Emmaus Road.

"It is dangerous to trust in your own hearts, for the Bible says, ‘The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked’ (Jeremiah 17:9). And while it is true that the two men’s hearts burned while they were on the road (Luke 24:32), Christ rebuked them saying, ‘O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken’ (Luke 24:25). They did not even recognize who the Lord was, even though they had a burning in their hearts!", I told them.

"Furthermore, the test of the prophet was never made by a burning in the heart; the test of a prophet was 100% accuracy in what he spoke. (See Deuteronomy 13:1-10, and 18:20-22) The question is not whether my heart burns when I hear Joseph Smith’s prophesies, but the accuracy of the Book of Mormon. I have a letter from the National Museum of Natural History which says, "Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."

" Would you like to see a copy of that letter?", I asked them.

They both replied, "No, we know this book is true, because of the burning in our hearts."

When I pressed them, both told me that they placed more weight on their feelings than any archeological evidence that would seem to contradict their beliefs."

The two elders came one last time, bringing a video entitled, How Rare a Possession. It told the story of how a pastor found a copy of the Book of Mormon and became convinced that it was the word of God. Much to the discomfort of Elders Fred and Art, I took notes while the video was being shown.

When the pastor was brought before a council, for teaching apostasy, he told this committee that he could not abandon the new doctrine he found in the book of Mormon.

After the video was over, I asked the two elders about the statement the former pastor made about ‘the new doctrine’. They denied that it had been made.

"I took notes. Let us watch the video once more, and see if that statement really was made." I was told that I could not see the video again.

I asked the elders if they could explain what Romans 2:16 meant: "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

" Does this verse not mean that we all will be judged according to the gospel that is written by the apostle Paul? Does your church teach that same gospel?", I questioned.

They refused to answer my question, and Elder Fred told me, "It is fruitless for us to talk to you any more. You have a contentious spirit and are not interested in the truth!"

"If I appear to be contentious to you, it is only because I am obeying the commandments of the New Testament. For in the Book of Jude, it is written, ‘that ye should earnestly contend for the faith...’ "

"But we are preaching the same gospel as you are!" Elder Fred protested.

I said, "Let me finish the verse! That ye should earnestly content for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3). I am contending for the faith that was delivered once. Your faith was partially delivered in the New Testament, then Joseph Smith delivered another testament of Jesus Christ. You are contenting for the faith that was delivered twice. According to the Holy Scriptures who is obeying the command of God?

They stormed out, promising never to return to my home again.

But let's get back on track.



"Any helpful suggestions on what else I could have said?"



So many times, people don't reply in love and kindness. The certainty of their faith comes across as arrogance and it seems unloving. For Christians to say, "If I don't tell the truth, then I am not showing true love to them (*the lost*).


Maybe the question should be termed,


"Any helpful suggestions on what else I could have said in a loving manner?"





~malaka~

 

[texanjo]

All I have seen are rude uncalled for comebacks. How about for once being a nice person and saying something like " thank you for your concern/effort however i wish not to talk about my beliefs God bless you and thank you" hmmmmmm that sound like a very nice person. Or you can just say " i'm sorry but i'm a close minded self rightious judgemental person who thinks that if you don't think the way i do you are doomed to hell! That works too but just makes you look bad.