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empowered expression or objectification?

NothingIsImpossible

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Amen to that. Out culture is really going down the drain. I seen a study somewhere last week about 3/4 of all people before they are 18 have had sex. That saddens me.
 
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tall73

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And if I, a feminist, can get confused about these issues, think how much more a man would - how are people to know what's the difference between one person's "perspective" that a certain thing is just empowerment and real exploitation?

I am not sure many men would be confused by all this. Most would likely fall into two camps, either thinking that both are inappropriate, or thinking that both are great.

Perhaps it is because you are a feminist that you are upset over mixed messages coming out trying to speak for women. Those who don't categorize things in terms of feminist thinking and messaging wouldn't feel the same way. They would just say it was ok, or not ok based on their own ethics, and not really worry about what various women's groups said about it.

I think CG is right in that these are likely different groups with different notions of what empowered entails, so it is not directly hypocritical, etc.
 
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DZoolander

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Amen to that. Out culture is really going down the drain. I seen a study somewhere last week about 3/4 of all people before they are 18 have had sex. That saddens me.

Why does that sadden you? You know in the old days when everyone was getting married at 16-17? There was sex before 18 going on there, too...

The human condition is what it is - and I would argue has remained unchanged. Trying to make our predecessors out to be somehow more pious than the current lot is a mistake, IMHO.
 
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mkgal1

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I hope you don't really hear that from mental health professionals....if so....that seems very *un* professional to demean (and seemingly toss out) men like that.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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I hope you don't really hear that from mental health professionals....if so....that seems very *un* professional to demean (and seemingly toss out) men like that.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid I have. Sad, isn't it?
 
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ImaginaryDay

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Why does that sadden you? You know in the old days when everyone was getting married at 16-17? There was sex before 18 going on there, too...

Because it was a cultural norm. Maturity levels of young people in the "old days" was quite different (imo). You also have to factor in mean life expectancies as well - they weren't counting on living as long as people today. Many were also skilled immigrants who were willing and able to work and support a family quite young.

The human condition is what it is - and I would argue has remained unchanged. Trying to make our predecessors out to be somehow more pious than the current lot is a mistake, IMHO.

More pious? Idk... Perhaps they were, perhaps not. But I don't know if it's a "human condition" question either. I suspect you know my answer, but it would be off topic, so I won't offer it.
 
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Hetta

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So when you stereotype women in a response to me that is "discussing" but when I comment on the stereotyping in that response it's "debating".

Got it.
 
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mkgal1

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I hope you don't really hear that from mental health professionals....if so....that seems very *un* professional to demean (and seemingly toss out) men like that.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid I have. Sad, isn't it?

Actually, I think it goes beyond "sad"....probably more like negligent. But....it may explain a few things.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Actually, I think it goes beyond "sad"....probably more like negligent. But....it may explain a few things.

I'm sure I've encountered my share of lemons in the profession.

I had a therapist until a couple of years ago, when he left to take another job, who helped teach me differently. He says he's seen every gender stereotype defied in his office, and he thinks it's high time we stopped using gender as an excuse for behavior. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you have to be irrational and not logical, and just because you're a man doesn't mean you have to be devoid of emotions. That sort of thing. But yes, before that therapist, when I mentioned to my previous one that I'm concerned about my husband's inability to show his emotions (he is so closed off, he doesn't even cry when a loved one dies) the first thing out of her mouth was, "Well, he's a guy!" (As noted, my husband has alexithymia. That is not typical or normal, nor is it "just a guy thing.")

ETA: It happened just today. I had an intake appointment for a group therapy program, which I am just now home from. When the program director was asking me about my family and being supportive, I mentioned that my husband wants to be supportive, but he doesn't always understand, due to that alexithymia thing. She gave a smile and a shrug and told me in a "we're in the same boat" kind of tone that in general she finds men to be "sort of emotionally (can't say the word she used; it's synonymous with intellectual disability.)" Yes, I find this to be a pretty typical response when the person on the other side of the desk is a woman.
 
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Hetta

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You and I have discussed this before, as I recall. Some people like to whitewash the past or they haven't never taken a single history class - or both. This perfect past where everyone waited for marriage and nobody even thought about sex simply never existed. There's a reason why prostitution is called the oldest profession.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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So you would state that social norms don't change - that the 'human condition' has been, and will be, the same (i.e. same motivations, same outcomes) across time and generations?

As for this part:

This perfect past where everyone waited for marriage and nobody even thought about sex simply never existed.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization. You would still argue that social norms during, say, the Victorian era and the sexual revolution that followed were exactly the same?
 
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Niffer

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Blind post:

It's objectification no matter how you do it.
You can be holding up safety signs, twerking on stage or proudly strutting on a S%ut Walk..but you're still objectifying yourself.

We write articles to our young girls telling them to respect their bodies and themselves by not posting sexy, scantily-clad, cleavage-filled profile pics on facebook, then BAM! as soon as their 18, we tell them that their sexuality should be flaunted because of empowerment and "pride" in their form.

But what are they being prideful in?
When you go on these S7ut walks, are you actually talking about owning your body, or are you just flaunting it and calling it 'empowerment.'?

It's a complete contradiction.

You can't make respect out of objectification, and if all you're presenting as a woman, is your sexuality, then you have already set yourself up for failure.
 
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tall73

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Different people having different perspectives is not helping "feminism" as a movement when feminism is not united in their goal.

I think, you are noting the differences that many outside of feminist circles have noted for a while. Some feminists want equal treatment and respect for women. Other feminists want women to hold power over men.

The former group thinks that it is demeaning for women to be objectified and wants respect for the female form. The latter sees the female form as a means of enticing men and getting their way.

Hence the many objections to radical feminism. Those objections are often aimed against the latter group, not against those who want respect for women.
 
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DZoolander

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So you would state that social norms don't change - that the 'human condition' has been, and will be, the same (i.e. same motivations, same outcomes) across time and generations?

When it comes to the individual human condition, yes. With respect to the desire to mate (have sex) - once people have gone through puberty and start thinking about it - they desire it. Once people desire something, they act in accord with how they best believe they can obtain it. So in that, the motivations remain unchanged.

The "differences" people think exist come from the fact that people also desire social acceptance. If you have a society that expects you to at least put on the facade that you waited until marriage - then if you accidentally knock the girl up - you'll marry her (and hope nobody notices the slight time problem/sweeps it under the rug because "you married her anyhow")...and if you have a society that condemns divorce...you'll remain married (regardless of how much you dislike the other person) simply to maintain the status quo.

That, I believe, is the difference between "the past" (Victorian times, or whatever you may point to) and now. I don't believe the behaviors themselves (meaning - how early they were having sex, how many they were having sex with, or whatever) changed. What changed is how people reacted if they believed their behaviors would be "revealed".

For example (and I really do need to go re-find the study...since I refer to it every now and then) - I remember reading a few years back about research a guy did with respect to date of birth of first child relative to date of marriage for Puritans...and to his surprise...a LARGE percentage of the first born children were born roughly 7-8 months after marriage.

Unless human biology has also changed - that suggests shotgun marriages.

...and shotgun marriages mean pre-marital sex.

...and odds are - you didn't knock up the girl the first time you had sex with her...

...and odds are...if you were having premarital sex...it probably wasn't the first person you'd had it with.

Of course - the last couple of things there are leaps I'm making...but the timing of first born child/date of marriage - really can't be argued any other way.

For example - I think about my dad. He was big on the idea of chastity and would discuss it with me all the time (with reference to whomever I was dating at the time).

Growing up - I totally had the impression that my dad was this righteous beacon of self control...who took the ideas of chastity very seriously...and always had. But then, one day, I took a look at the birthdate of my eldest sister, and compared it against the date on the marriage certificate. 6 months apart.

Out of curiosity - I asked an aunt of mine how long he had known her before they got married...and she told me "not very long at all" - and he had introduced his wife to his family for the first time after they had already married.

Know what that means? Hot date - got her pregnant - decided to "do the right thing". Good enough...but it still means he got horny with a lady he briefly knew - she was available - and he acted upon it. His behaviors mirrored the kinds of things that he admonished about/against. I suppose it's always conceivable that this was the first/only person that had happened with - but I wouldn't bet the house on it if the truth COULD be known.

That's what I'm talking about when I say the human condition hasn't changed.

As for this part:



That's a pretty sweeping generalization. You would still argue that social norms during, say, the Victorian era and the sexual revolution that followed were exactly the same?
Social norms - as in what people "showed" other people - no. That's definitely changed. But I believe if you look at what people actually were doing behind closed doors - yep - exactly the same.

...only difference is that they had horrible hygiene.
 
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Hetta

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Ezoo pretty much covered everything. I've shown studies in the past, I just don't feel like going and finding them again.

Regardless of the generation/historical era, people have always been human.
 
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mkgal1

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Well said....I agree.
 
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seeingeyes

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mkgal1

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I also agree with EZoo. From the very beginning, we've had Cains....and we've had Abels. When external rules or social acceptance changes....that only changes the outward appearance of things.

'Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto. I am a human being, nothing human can be alien to me.' That's one thing I'm learning." — Dr. Maya Angelou
 
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ValleyGal

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'Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto. I am a human being, nothing human can be alien to me.' That's one thing I'm learning." — Dr. Maya Angelou

Somehow, I have trouble seeing Dr. Maya Angelou twerking (or anything else "human" like wearing a 99% sheer dress on the red carpet or sexing her way to management - and this is not just sleeping with them; it's about wearing stilettos and a miniskirt business suit to the office every day rather than a business suit like a man's).


I've been saying this for a long time (I get egged for it nearly every time, too). That's only one part of the equation, though. It all affects men - some very negatively, and no one admits or takes responsibility for that. It is confusing to women, who know what they believe individually, but associate with some groups...but each person individually makes it even more confusing for men because there is no general standard or guideline by which they can gauge what to expect or how to "be" a man in today's world.

You can't make respect out of objectification, and if all you're presenting as a woman, is your sexuality, then you have already set yourself up for failure.

Excellent point, Niffer! To add, these women who objectify themselves are also setting feminism up to be pitted against itself, and setting up men for confusion.
 
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