Emergence

[Loudmouth]

It is. I was going for a sense of unpredictable that is independent of us - of our knowledge. Such a thing would have to be established mathematically, but I don't know if it would be possible to achieve.

I agree. The other hard part is knowing if we are using the right mathematics.

Maybe a different way of coming at it is the whole P vs. NP thing and the idea of reversible processes. For example, there isn't a general algorithm for factoring a number into primes ... at least not one other than guessing and verifying, and guessing isn't really a process. So maybe in that sense a net trained to factor numbers (which is something people try to do) is unpredictable.

This certainly isn't my specialty, but I thought there were aspects of quantum computing that are looking at cracking prime numbers since they are such a vital part of encryption. It would seem to operate in a different manner than semiconductor chips in that the "question" causes a collapse of a wave function, and out pops your answer. I could be completely wrong in how quantum computing works, but that is the impression I get from my limited reading.

Also, if there is anything that we could categorize as unpredictable, it would be quantum events.

 

[Resha Caner]

This certainly isn't my specialty, but I thought there were aspects of quantum computing that are looking at cracking prime numbers since they are such a vital part of encryption. It would seem to operate in a different manner than semiconductor chips in that the "question" causes a collapse of a wave function, and out pops your answer. I could be completely wrong in how quantum computing works, but that is the impression I get from my limited reading.

That's true. People are working on that, but I don't think anyone has succeeded yet.

Also, if there is anything that we could categorize as unpredictable, it would be quantum events.

Right. But if, in the end, all that unpredictable means is "random", that would be disappointing.

 

[Loudmouth]

That's true. People are working on that, but I don't think anyone has succeeded yet.

After a quick Google search, I was surprised to find that they have had success. They were able to factor 56,153 into its primes.

http://phys.org/news/2014-11-largest-factored-quantum-device.html

I didn't read too far into it, but I would suspect someone will call "shenanigans" based on some programming shortcut, as they normally do. However, it does look promising, if a bit scary given our reliance on encryption based on large primes.

Right. But if, in the end, all that unpredictable means is "random", that would be disappointing.

That sounds more like a debate on free will and predestination.

 

[Resha Caner]

After a quick Google search, I was surprised to find that they have had success. They were able to factor 56,153 into its primes.

That's a good first step. However, I'd bet traditional algorithms could factor that number pretty quickly too. I believe the primes used for encryption involve much larger numbers. People often underestimate the issue of scalability.

That sounds more like a debate on free will and predestination.

No. I don't think it would go very far to tie issues of free will to what we know (or don't know) about emergence. And the issue of predictability was just a new wrinkle of interest. My main interest in emergence is the way it relates to complexity. I've been able to show for some special cases that increasing complexity above a certain point depends on emergence. However, when discussing that with various journals they indicated the special cases aren't all that interesting. They would want a general mathematical development - something neither I nor anyone I know of has line of sight to at the moment.