Ellen White on the Sabbath

[MoreCoffee]

... {GW92 125.1}​

... {4SP 212.2}​

... {4SP 288.2}​

... {UL 52.2}​

... {RH, May 28, 1901 par. 3}​

What are the things in the {}?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

I am returning to this post to examine what you wrote about Nebuchadnezzar, however, this is straying from the original post's theme.

Firstly I want to have a look at Daniel 2:36-45. The New American Bible (revised edition of 2011) says this in a footnote:

[2:36–45] The four successive kingdoms in this apocalyptic perspective are the Babylonian (gold), the Median (silver), the Persian (bronze), and the Hellenistic (iron). The last, after Alexander’s death, was divided among his generals (vv. 41–42). Of the kingdoms which emerged from this partitioning, the two that most affected the Jews were the dynasties of the Ptolemies in Egypt and the Seleucids in Syria. They tried in vain, by war and through intermarriage, to restore the unity of Alexander’s empire (v. 43). The stone hewn from the mountain is the kingdom of God awaited by the Jews (vv. 44–45). Compare the image of the stone applied to Jesus in Luke 20:17–18.
​

I image that this scheme of interpretation differs from the one you are used to.​

I'm well aware of this interpretation, and numerous solidly written exegetical papers have been written by our Expositors proving it to be categorically false.

Who are the expositors?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

You ask: "Nebuchadnezzar is not the same as the City he sits in, correct?"
...

How, exactly is your question relevant to the woman in John's vision? The woman seated on the scarlet beast is not a historical character. She is a fictional being. In Revelation it is said that "The woman whom you saw represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth" (NAB)​

It does not matter. You miss the point. The point is that a symbol of a woman can mean more than one thing. It can mean the headship of a kingdom, but also the kingdom itself, or even the capital city. The expression "Babylon" was used both for the empire, and for the capital city of Babylon.

So, the woman in the vision fills the same function, in your opinion, as Nebuchadnezzar? Despite the fact the the woman is in the vision but Nebuchadnezzar is not in the dream? Nebuchadnezzar is in the interpretation of the dream and the "great city" is in the interpretation of the vision. Looks like Nebuchadnezzar's role is more like the "great city" than it is like the woman. And it looks like the woman is more like the statue in the dream.

(see Daniel 2:29-35 and revelation 17:1-6a)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

You say: "The Harlot Woman is also "riding the beast" in 17:3. Are you suggesting that the Beast is carrying the City?

• [1] How does a City man a Beast without there being a living entity behind it?
• [2] Does a city exist without people, and especially people without a religion?
• [3] Does not a city also represent its citizens?
• [4] Are not its citizens what make up a religious entity?
• [5] How can a barren city control a Beast?"

I respond: The beast appears to be a composite being; it includes the kings of the earth, 7 kings of the empire, and somehow the beast is itself one of the 7 kings of the empire, and there are another 10 kings who come afterwards and have a short period of rule.

In answer to your series of questions I say this: the woman is identified as the great city and no more need be said on that;

• [1] every city has people in it and in this case the city clearly has rulers;
• [2] the religions of the people of Rome were pagan idolatrous religions and there was, at the time that John was writing revelation, a cult of the emperor which was imposed upon all the citizens and all the conquered people of the empire;
• [3] a city can represent its citizens and it can represent the nation or kingdom or empire of which it is the capitol.
• [4] I am not sure what you mean by "Are not its citizens what make up a religious entity?" because most of the religions in ancient Rome had members from many places and in many places rather than just in the city of Rome - however if you want to take the city as representing the Roman empire then yes, the citizens and non-citizens of the empire would be members of the various religions of Rome;
• [5] I have no idea what you mean by "How can a barren city control a Beast?" However the city of Rome did control the Roman empire and it did control the conquered kingdoms of the earth.

Regarding the identity of the great city we do have these clues:

1. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings (17:9). Rome was famous for being the city built upon seven hills. The walled portion of the old city of Rome included seven hills.
   
2. The seven kings may represent seven Roman emperors or they may represent all the Roman emperors - seven being frequently used in scripture to denote completion.

You say: "Also, how does a city sit on top of "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" if you are truly thinking the woman only represents the Roman City? 17:15."

I respond : By ruling over them.
​

You appear to be saying that I or Adventists do not believe the Woman to represent Rome, the Capital City sitting on 7 hills.

No, I am not saying that.

By all means, we do. Your problem appears to be that you are "locking" the interpretation to be constricted within the confines of 7 hills--the point being nothing more than the fact that this harlot power's capital sits on these 7 hills. She also sits on waters. Thus one cannot "pidgin hole" the symbolism, as there are various interlocking facets and attributes to this composite Antichrist system.

What's constricted about taking the interpretation given by the angel seriously? The angel says seven hills and seven kings.

• verse 9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."
• verse 10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

The woman sits on waters and the angels says that the waters are peoples and nations and so on.

• verse 15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Keep in mind that Adventists do not believe that the Harlot Woman sitting on the Beast only represents the Papacy, but a combination of both Pagan and Papal Rome throughout history. Pagan Rome was also a religious system, but governed primary by political attributes. The Woman at this stage of the game did not control the Beast.

I am not a Seventh Day Adventist so my interest is not in what SDAs teach but in what Revelation 17:1-18 teaches.

You may be interested to read my paper in how I see the relation of the Beast and the Harlot Woman in this link here:
The harlot of Babylon & Antichrist

On a number of coins, as has been pictorially demonstrated in this link here, we see that during Ancient Rome there was a Woman riding the Beast. It is seen as almost a prefigure of what was already developing at that time, as well well know that Constantine became a Christian--and Constantine was the emperor of Ancient Rome, for Ancient Rome did not cease to exist according to scholars until 476 A.D. Yet the evolution of this Christian ascendency continued through the Papal Line, taking on the title "Pontifix Maximus" for "bridge-builder". According to the link given, exhaustive exegesis has been supplied, with clear maps, to show how the Vatican also sits upon these very same 7 hills---and thus it does not take a rocket-scientists to see the continued evolution of this Woman sitting on a Beast.

The above is irrelevant; it may be important in SDA circles but it is not important for the teaching in Revelation 17:1-18.

We do not rule out either or. The symbol of the Woman sitting on the Beast encompasses both the times of Pagan and Papal Rome---in two different phases, but practically the same.

Concerning the seven kings, I refer you to the various possible applications according to Seventh-Day Adventists here:
Satan's Impersonation of Christ Predicted? Revelation 17 Expounded

Last edited by Lysimachus; 6th November 2012 at 08:07 AM.

Thanks for the links.

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

The first meaning is the correct one in context power, the efficiency. to be inactive is the relationship of the law with us. You cannot ignore the other things Paul said. The second meaning does not fit in context, he never said it was terminated.
​

Do you really mean this - to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative?

bugkiller

Of course I do but what you have to understand it is that I also stated that the law still stands so what do I really mean? As Paul also said, the effects or results of violating the law is ineffective.
The law is not the problem, sin is. That is what Jesus died for, our sins not the law. So in Christ the law has the death effect removed, that is what is inactive.
1 Cor. 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
What victory are we given? The removal of the law or of sin and death?

 

[Lysimachus]

What are the things in the {}?

Someone who was not a Catholic.

 

[Lysimachus]

Who are the expositors?

Adventist as well as Protestant expositors. I think their arguments are better than Catholic Expositors' arguments.

 

[bugkiller]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

The first meaning is the correct one in context power, the efficiency. to be inactive is the relationship of the law with us. You cannot ignore the other things Paul said. The second meaning does not fit in context, he never said it was terminated.
​

Of course I do but what you have to understand it is that I also stated that the law still stands so what do I really mean? As Paul also said, the effects or results of violating the law is ineffective.
The law is not the problem, sin is. That is what Jesus died for, our sins not the law. So in Christ the law has the death effect removed, that is what is inactive.
1 Cor. 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
What victory are we given? The removal of the law or of sin and death?

So you have contradictory statements. Which one do you wish us to believe? Do you wish us to believe the Scriptures or yourself?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Someone who was not a Catholic.

It appears that you are hiding information requested. It was asked what the abbrivations are. Please provide them to us non SDA folks.

bugkiller

 

[Lysimachus]

No, I am not saying that.What's constricted about taking the interpretation given by the angel seriously? The angel says seven hills and seven kings.

I do believe it says seven hills and seven kings. I take just what the angel says. However, while I believe the seven hills is a primary application to Rome sitting on seven literal hills, I also believe the seven heads, which are seven kings, are symbolic of several possible applications, not isolated to 7 single isolated men. Sine Nebuchadnezzar was a single "king", yet represented the entire kingdom of Babylon, the expression "7 kings" could be symbolically referring to "seven kingdoms".

In Daniel 7:17, we are told that the 4 beasts represent "four kings" rising out of the earth. Yet in Daniel verse 23 we are told that the "fourth beast" shall be the "fourth kingdom" upon the earth. So a "king" and a "kingdom" are interchangeable. Also, while the "ten horns" in Daniel 7:24 are seen as "ten kings", horns are also recognizes as "kingdoms" according to Daniel 8:22. Thus we see here how the angel utilizes these symbols and freely uses them to mean different things. A "king" has been shown to also represent a "kingdom'.

While I am not dogmatic on the 7 heads of Revelation 13, here is one possible application I'm looking into--but even if this one does not work, there are several other to look at. Remember, not even all Catholic expositors are agreed.

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece
4. Pagan Rome
5. Papal Rome
6. Papal Rome in its wounded state from French Revolution (one is--angel's point of reference)
7. Revived Papal Rome (yet future--short time)

Some may object to the John saying is saying "one is" during John's time. The argument however does not work because the "point of reference" is in the future. In other words, John is traveling in a time capsule through this vision, and the one that "is" simply represents that in the vision, the point of reference the angel is alluding to is after 1798.

• verse 9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."
• verse 10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

The woman sits on waters and the angels says that the waters are peoples and nations and so on.

I agree with this much.

• verse 15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

No problem here. I agree.

I am not a Seventh Day Adventist so my interest is not in what SDAs teach but in what Revelation 17:1-18 teaches.The above is irrelevant; it may be important in SDA circles but it is not important for the teaching in Revelation 17:1-18.Thanks for the links.

Are you sure you don't mean to say your interest is in what the Catholic Commentary has to say?

Just for fun, I think we should have a Bible Commentary War. You utilizing the Catholic Bible Commentary, and me using the 12 Volume Set SDA Bible Commentary.

 

[Lysimachus]

It appears that you are hiding information requested. It was asked what the abbrivations are. Please provide them to us non SDA folks.

bugkiller

I honestly do not care bugkiller. Of course it was Ellen White. I did not purposely "hide" anything with the abbreviations. I copied them exactly the way they are out of the CD-Rom. Those abbreviations were there. They are not used to deceive, but they are used as quick references within SDA circles because there are so many books that she wrote.

I did not quote her as an authority. I quoted her because I felt the arguments had merit.

 

[bugkiller]

I do believe it says seven hills and seven kings. I take just what the angel says. However, while I believe the seven hills is a primary application to Rome sitting on seven literal hills, I also believe the seven heads, which are seven kings, are symbolic of several possible applications, not isolated to 7 single isolated men. Sine Nebuchadnezzar was a single "king", yet represented the entire kingdom of Babylon, the expression "7 kings" could be symbolically referring to "seven kingdoms".

In Daniel 7:17, we are told that the 4 beasts represent "four kings" rising out of the earth. Yet in Daniel verse 23 we are told that the "fourth beast" shall be the "fourth kingdom" upon the earth. So a "king" and a "kingdom" are interchangeable. Also, while the "ten horns" in Daniel 7:24 are seen as "ten kings", horns are also recognizes as "kingdoms" according to Daniel 8:22. Thus we see here how the angel utilizes these symbols and freely uses them to mean different things. A "king" has been shown to also represent a "kingdom'.

While I am not dogmatic on the 7 heads of Revelation 13, here is one possible application I'm looking into--but even if this one does not work, there are several other to look at. Remember, not even all Catholic expositors are agreed.

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece
4. Pagan Rome
5. Papal Rome
6. Papal Rome in its wounded state from French Revolution (one is--angel's point of reference)
7. Revived Papal Rome (yet future--short time)

Some may object to the John saying is saying "one is" during John's time. The argument however does not work because the "point of reference" is in the future. In other words, John is traveling in a time capsule through this vision, and the one that "is" simply represents that in the vision, the point of reference the angel is alluding to is after 1798.



I agree with this much.



No problem here. I agree.



Are you sure you don't mean to say your interest is in what the Catholic Commentary has to say?

Just for fun, I think we should have a Bible Commentary War. You utilizing the Catholic Bible Commentary, and me using the 12 Volume Set SDA Bible Commentary.

What exactly does this continuud derailment have to do with the topic of the thread?

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

Just for fun, I think we should have a Bible Commentary War. You utilizing the Catholic Bible Commentary, and me using the 12 Volume Set SDA Bible Commentary.

There was a commentary called "The Catholic Bible Commentary" but it was not a church produced work. It was just a work from some Catholic scholars.

I am not interested in a bible commentary war.

 

[Lysimachus]

What exactly does this continuud derailment have to do with the topic of the thread?

bugkiller

I confess we are off-topic. But yeah, MoreCoffee and I have been discussing the different interpretations of Woman and the Beast with seven heads.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I confess we are off-topic. But yeah, MoreCoffee and I have been discussing the different interpretations of Woman and the Beast with seven heads.

I think we're done with her now.

 

[Lysimachus]

There was a commentary called "The Catholic Bible Commentary" but it was not a church produced work. It was just a work from some Catholic scholars.

I am not interested in a bible commentary war.

Well then, I am glad you are not interested in a Bible commentary war, as I am not either. But I was afraid that was what it was turning into for a moment there!

 

[bugkiller]

I honestly do not care bugkiller. Of course it was Ellen White. I did not purposely "hide" anything with the abbreviations. I copied them exactly the way they are out of the CD-Rom. Those abbreviations were there. They are not used to deceive, but they are used as quick references within SDA circles because there are so many books that she wrote.

I did not quote her as an authority. I quoted her because I felt the arguments had merit.

I did not intend to mean you are trying to decieve us with those abbreviations. I asked what they mean? Since you copied them from a CD would you care to also tell us what that is. The rules of the forum say sources must be identified with proper credit.

bugkiller

 

[dollarsbill]

Well, if you want to, go right ahead--but it could end you in jail for murder. But if you are convinced that that is what God wants, spending the rest of your life in jail should not matter--want me to be 1st in line?

I'm not preaching the Law. Aren't you? The Law requires you to execute sinners. Not me, Im under the New Covenant. I've NEVER been under the Law.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm not preaching the Law. Aren't you? The Law requires you to execute sinners. Not me, Im under the New Covenant. I've NEVER been under the Law.

Not a single one of the 10 commandments requires anyone to kill another human--I do believe it does say "Thou shalt not murder."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not a single one of the 10 commandments requires anyone to kill another human--I do believe it does say "Thou shalt not murder."

But the Law required killing people for all sorts of disobedience, for example sabbath breaking.