Ellen White on the Sabbath

[mmksparbud]

I am not sure how "you shall not commit adultery" is a part of God's eternal character, perhaps you can explain how it is. I have a similar doubt about "you shall honour your father and your mother so that you may live long in the land that I promise". "You shall not covet your neighbour's goods" and "you shall not covet your neighbour's wife" both seem unlikely candidates for God's unchanging eternal character. And how is it God's character to "have no other gods" and "to make no carved images"? And then there's "remember the rest (sabbath) day to keep it holy"; how is that God's eternal and unchanging character?

I don't think you don't know the answer to your own question, I know you are smart enough to have figured that out--you just like discussions.
--Thou shalt not commit adultry--It's for our own good. The one that commits it is sinning, going against the purity of God's character of being faithful. The hurt party in adultry often then goes into a deep depression, even questions God, God does not want us to feel that pain of being rejected, betrayed--for He would never betray or reject us.
Honor your father and mother--The family is a sacred thing to God. It's a miniature picture of His relationship to His father. He is our heavenly Father, in honoring our earthly parents we honor God.
No other god's is pretty self-explanatory, it's spiritual adultry, He is the only God--and He does not want us to worship a lie--a thing of our own creation, as in images, or of created things, such as animals. He alone is God and He wants us to know that truth. God deals with reality.
The 7th day is a memorial to His creation and for our own health--He is the creator, and we are not a product of chance, or some other theory--He rested from creating for one day so He could admire His works, and so that those He created will take one day a week to honor Him, to set aside all worldly thoughts and enjoy what He has created for us. To know Him, to see Him as the giver of all that is good.
He does not take life lightly. It is a hard thing for Him to destroy what He has made, though at times He must because of our desire to do evil. We must see life as a gift from God and not take it away. He is the life giver.

all the commandments are for our own good, to help see what our relationship to each other and to Him should be, to show us what He values, what His kingdom is like. Love, respect, honor--He is all these and more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

mmksparbud, let's see how Elder 111 responds.

Your response does not address the questions I raised. Had 'Elder 111' claimed that the ten commandments reflected aspects of God's compassion and love and as such were reflections of his nature because God is Love then he would have made a valid connection between them and God's character. He didn't do that, so I want to see what link he is making between the 10c and God's character.

 

[Elder 111]

I am not sure how "you shall not commit adultery" is a part of God's eternal character, perhaps you can explain how it is. I have a similar doubt about "you shall honour your father and your mother so that you may live long in the land that I promise". "You shall not covet your neighbour's goods" and "you shall not covet your neighbour's wife" both seem unlikely candidates for God's unchanging eternal character. And how is it God's character to "have no other gods" and "to make no carved images"? And then there's "remember the rest (sabbath) day to keep it holy"; how is that God's eternal and unchanging character?

Because there are acts of love and are just good and holy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because there are acts of love and are just good and holy.

Some of the commandments are positive and can rightly be described as acts of love

1. Remember the 7th day rest and let your self and your slaves enjoy that rest
2. Honour one's father and mother

and some are negative and ought to be described as boundaries beyond which a person cannot go.

1. No false gods
2. No idolatry
3. You shall not blaspheme
4. You shall not lie
5. You shall not steal
6. you shall not kill
7. you shall not commit adultery
8. you shall not covet another's property
9. you shall not covet another's wife

The above are boundaries rather than acts of love; they command not acting in specific ways but they do not command any positive actions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah declares: "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto Him? . . . Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. . . . To whom then will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth. Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God? Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? . . . He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might He increaseth strength." "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of My righteousness." "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." This is the message written in nature, which the Sabbath is appointed to keep in memory. When the Lord bade Israel hallow His Sabbaths, He said, "They shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am Jehovah your God." Isa. 40:18-29; 41:10; 45:22; Ezek. 20:20, R. V. (THE DESIRE OF AGES, Chapter 29, page 282, 283)​

The collection of verses (in their context) listed here Isa. 40:18-29; 41:10; 45:22 has no significant connection to the 7th day rest.

When Ellen White says "This is the message written in nature, which the Sabbath is appointed to keep in memory." There is nothing in the preceding verses to suggest any such thing.

Ezek. 20:20 does have a link to it.

Aside from the slight criticism in my first two paragraphs there's nothing in the above quote that's objectionable - it is, after all, mostly selected and edited scripture quotes.

 

[Elder 111]

Some of the commandments are positive and can rightly be described as acts of love

1. Remember the 7th day rest and let your self and your slaves enjoy that rest
2. Honour one's father and mother

and some are negative and ought to be described as boundaries beyond which a person cannot go.

1. No false gods
2. No idolatry
3. You shall not blaspheme
4. You shall not lie
5. You shall not steal
6. you shall not kill
7. you shall not commit adultery
8. you shall not covet another's property
9. you shall not covet another's wife

The above are boundaries rather than acts of love; they command not acting in specific ways but they do not command any positive actions.

It takes positive motives not to do them.

 

[MamaZ]

1. Heb. 4 that you have quoted is actually stating that the Sabbath still is if not Jesus would have given another day. The name is Jesus and not Joshua. It is interesting that the same word is translated Jesus 934 other times in the NT as Jesus and now you want to accept that it means Joshua this one time? 1 out of 935? You kidding me, right?
2. Jesus sanctified the day and gave no other.
3. God at no time gave a directive to remove Sabbath observance. In fact it is the work of the antichrist. Dan. 7:25 Thinking to change time and law. The Sabbath is a combination of both, time as in the day and law as the law of God. It was not sanctified for Israel but for man or Jesus is a liar. It was not sanctified at Sinai but at Eden.
4. What good is it to love my neighbor and hate God’s Sabbath? Am I not also to love God enough to obey Him?
5. The excuse that the Sabbath was given to the Jews or anything else for that matter is totally invalid. Even Jesus was given to the Jews. Jesus said that salvation was of the Jews. John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

1.The sabbath is Resting as God did from His works. Believers rest now from their works. Meaning working of the Law. Such as Keeping the sabbath. For believers have entered Gods rest.

2. We are obeying God when we rest from the law. For we put our trust completely in Christ and His works. Believers understand that our righteousness comes from Christ. Not workings of the law.

3. Not invalid. For we read in scripture of two covenants. Hagar and Sarah. One of law which was cast out and one of Promise. Believers are the children of Promise. Not the children of law which has been cast out.

4. Jesus was Jew by birth. He was the only one who kept the law perfectly. Salvation comes through Christ who was born of a woman under the law.

5. Do you believe Jesus did not keep the law good enough for you and you can do a better Job of it?

 

[mmksparbud]

mmksparbud, let's see how Elder 111 responds.

Your response does not address the questions I raised. Had 'Elder 111' claimed that the ten commandments reflected aspects of God's compassion and love and as such were reflections of his nature because God is Love then he would have made a valid connection between them and God's character. He didn't do that, so I want to see what link he is making between the 10c and God's character.

And you do not think my answers did not address God's character??---most certainly did--you can't see that?? Go back and read it again, and this time, take you blinders off.

 

[mmksparbud]

Reading from the Catholic Catachism #2053---"......the evangelical counsels are inseperable from the 10 commandments"

#2068 "The council of Trent teaches that the 10 commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them. The Second Vatican council confirms:The Bishops, successors of the apostles, receives from the Lord.. the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith,baptism and the observance of the Tem Commandments.

Since I do not know how to cut and paste I had to go back and forth--maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can copy them here to make sure I've quoted right.

 

[Elder 111]

1.The sabbath is Resting as God did from His works. Believers rest now from their works. Meaning working of the Law. Such as Keeping the sabbath. For believers have entered Gods rest.

Now that does not make sense does it? God rested and asked us to rest but we should not rest because we are resting from works, but I should not commit adultery, idolatry and the like for then I would be sinning. Should I not also rest from them? If it is good for part of the ten why not all? Where did God say so?

2. We are obeying God when we rest from the law. For we put our trust completely in Christ and His works. Believers understand that our righteousness comes from Christ. Not workings of the law.

So why do I have to not lie? Is that not working for my salvation? I have a woman who is interested in me why should I work so hard to keep her away? Why is resting on the sabbath work anyway? How can rest be work?

3. Not invalid. For we read in scripture of two covenants. Hagar and Sarah. One of law which was cast out and one of Promise. Believers are the children of Promise. Not the children of law which has been cast out.

One was without faith the other was. Does keeping the sabbath negate our faith? Does giving an offer negate faith?
Is that not doing and therefore works?

4. Jesus was Jew by birth. He was the only one who kept the law perfectly. Salvation comes through Christ who was born of a woman under the law.

And Jesus said keep the law.

5. Do you believe Jesus did not keep the law good enough for you and you can do a better Job of it?

He kept it to set an example to all of us. His sinless life for our sinful lives but it was not for us to disregard His law. How come the Sabbath of all the ten is the only problem? You know that that is the only objection you really have!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MamaZ 5. Do you believe Jesus did not keep the law good enough for you and you can do a better Job of it?

He kept it to set an example to all of us. His sinless life for our sinful lives but it was not for us to disregard His law.
How come the Sabbath of all the ten is the only problem? You know that that is the only objection you really have!

Isn't a problem for me.
I celebrated it yesterday with barbeque pork ribs, beer and playing volleyball

 

[MoreCoffee]

It takes positive motives not to do them.

Saint Paul saw the commandments in a less positive light when he wrote,

Once, when there was no Law, I used to be alive; but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died. The commandment was meant to bring life but I found it brought death, because sin, finding its opportunity by means of the commandment, beguiled me and, by means of it, killed me. (Romans 7:9-11)​

The Law and the ten words (commandments) have a good purpose and they do set boundaries for one's conduct towards God and towards other people but Paul found that despite the goodness, the justness, the holiness, and the spiritual intent of Law the reality was the opposite.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Reading from the Catholic Catachism #2053---"......the evangelical counsels are inseperable from the 10 commandments"

#2068 "The council of Trent teaches that the 10 commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them. The Second Vatican council confirms:The Bishops, successors of the apostles, receives from the Lord.. the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith,baptism and the observance of the Tem Commandments.

Since I do not know how to cut and paste I had to go back and forth--maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can copy them here to make sure I've quoted right.

I will gladly help.

2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."(Mt 19:21) This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the Commandments. The Law has not been abolished,(Cf. Mt 5:17) but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfilment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus' call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity.(Cf. Mt 19:6-12, 21, 23-29) The evangelical counsels are inseparable from the Commandments.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
​

Cheers

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

I do not think that my questions were about God's character in the abstract. I asked how each of the ten commandments was a part of a "transcript of God's character" since that is the claim that Elder 111 made.

 

[Lysimachus]

MoreCoffee,

You are making a mountain out of a mowhill.

You are saying that the connections Ellen White are making are "wrong" simply because you do not see those "connections" being made in the Bible.

Have you forgotten the role of a prophet? A prophet fuses concepts together that the Lord revealed to them--to help emphasize other points---concepts of previously written works.

It is not wrong for a prophet to do this. What makes a prophet false is when they speak against the law and against the testimony, and also say things completely opposite of the Bible.

All the statements you quoted above are in harmony with the Bible, whether the Bible takes time to emphasize certain connections or not. A prophet making "connections" that the Bible does not make is not contrary to the bible.

What do you expect? That a prophet should simply repeat "verbatim" what the previous scriptures already said? What purpose would that serve? What would God accomplish by this? Nothing.

Her writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. So the incongruities you are finding would not be God's problem, or Ellen White's problem, but would have to be considered your problem.

The Bible has hundreds of so called "contradictions". You can google them.

The so called "discrepancies" between Ellen White in the Bible are no different than the numerous so called "discrepancies" or "contradictions" within the many books of the Bible itself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Lysimachus What I've said is that the scriptures included in Ellen White's argument do not give direct support for the claims that I've mentioned. Nothing more is said. No reflection on her faith or her life and no reflection on the way SDAs teach and live today. My main purpose is to give an account of what I read in her chapter on the sabbath in DESIRE OF AGES.

 

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus What I've said is that the scriptures included in Ellen White's argument do not give direct support for the claims that I've mentioned. Nothing more is said. No reflection on her faith or her life and no reflection on the way SDAs teach and live today. My main purpose is to give an account of what I read in her chapter on the sabbath in DESIRE OF AGES.

I think you're wasting your time though.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think you're wasting your time though.

I don't.

 

[Lysimachus]

I don't.

Perhaps is it because you do not like her that you naturally feel that way? Or bugged about it? I'm just trying to understand what motivates you to go to these lengths.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because you can't stand her, you naturally would feel that way. You must be bugged. It must be bothering you at night. No?

I have no real opinion on Ellen White. She died long before I was born. I have seen only a few pictures of her and read relatively little written by her. I do not understand why you assert that I "can't stand her"