Elements other than Bread and Wine in Eucharist?

Albion · Jul 11, 2017

People pay little attention to the definition of a sacrament, but we have always said that God uses physical elements to convey spiritual realities, such that a valid sacrament must have the right intention, proper wording, and the physical elements. You cannot consecrate a bishop by mail (I know--not a sacrament). You cannot baptize someone by pouring a can of motor oil over his head. And you cannot have Communion using Fritos and beer. Not even if your intentions are right and the proper words are recited. Squeezed raisins might be acceptable for the Eucharist in extreme circumstances because raisins, after all, are grapes, and that is the source of wine. So some leeway probably exists, but it is surely limited.

FireDragon76 · Jul 11, 2017

Albion said:
People pay little attention to the definition of a sacrament, but we have always said that God uses physical elements to convey spiritual realities, such that a valid sacrament must have the right intention, proper wording, and the physical elements. You cannot ordain someone by mail. You cannot baptize someone by pouring a can of motor oil over his head. And you cannot have Communion using Fritos and beer. Not even if your intentions are right and the proper words are recited. Squeezed raisins might be acceptable for the Eucharist in extreme circumstances because raisins, after all, are grapes, and that is the source of wine. So some leeway probably exists, but it is very limited.

What do you think of gluten-free wafers, since they are not made from wheat flour? How does your church handle Celiacs?

Albion · Jul 11, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
What do you think of gluten-free wafers, since they are not made from wheat flour? How does your church handle Celiacs?

I have never heard of anyone making that request in our church, and, frankly, I don't know enough about the kinds of materials used--in any church--when that problem has arisen for me to be able to answer right now. I do think that the RCC has found some way to accommodate such communicants and I would think that she has held to a pretty strict standard.

Paidiske · Jul 11, 2017

For the RCC, if a communicant cannot tolerate any gluten at all, they can receive the wine only. I am not sure how satisfactory most find that as an answer.

My diocese has adapted well to offering gluten-free wafers because our archbishop is coeliac and requires them, so it hasn't been an issue here for at least the last decade. My understanding is that the wafer is made from substances other than wheat (such as rice flour).

FireDragon76 · Jul 11, 2017

That Anglican Communion paper makes a good point, that the elements used in the Eucharist are not really native to northern Europe and England. Especially grape wine. The traditional wine of northern Europeans was made from honey, and grapes did not easily grow in northern Europe until churches encouraged the cultivation of varietals that could withstand colder temperatures. Even so, it was universally agreed the wines of northern Europe were low quality and were mostly cultivated for ecclessiatic use (there's lots of old jokes about English wine, for instance).

This is a good example how the spread of the Gospel actually changed cultures, causing vineyards to sprout up everywhere.

Albion · Jul 11, 2017

In the back of my mind I was thinking that the RCC did use some sort of substitute host, although the wine-only approach would fit with the theology of the church. In looking for an answer, I found this from catholicceliacs.org--

"The Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in Clyde, Missouri, have developed a Communion host that is extremely low in gluten. They have worked for ten years on this project. The host is made from gelatinized wheat starch. The hosts have been tested for the presence of gluten. According to the Sisters, they were tested to a level of 0.01% gluten. At that level, the lowest that could be tested, no gluten was detected. This means that there is less than 0.01% gluten in one of these hosts; however, it is not known how much less. The Secretariat for the Liturgy of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated that these meet the requirements of the Code of Canon Law and may be validly used at Mass with permission of the person’s pastor."

gordonhooker · Jul 13, 2017

Our Parish accommodate the very few celiacs in our congregation by using gluten free hosts, we source it through the Catholic Christian supplies outlet here in Brisbane. So it may well be the same host Albion talks about in the previous post.

Padres1969 · Jul 13, 2017

gordonhooker said:
Our Parish accommodate the very few celiacs in our congregation by using gluten free hosts, we source it through the Catholic Christian supplies outlet here in Brisbane. So it may well be the same host Albion talks about in the previous post.

Pretty sure the one Albion is referring to is the one my parish uses for our "gluten free" station during communion.

rhartsc · Jul 19, 2017

Regarding the wine, one has to be careful of cross contamination.

Padres1969 · Jul 24, 2017

rhartsc said:
Regarding the wine, one has to be careful of cross contamination.

Cross Contamination with what? Most parishes I know use fortified wine which typically can kill almost anything introduced to it due to the high alcohol content.

SteveCaruso · Jul 24, 2017

I always found the phrase "cross contamination" of the Eucharist funny.

Shane R · Jul 24, 2017

I took him to mean cross-contamination with the regular bread. In the RCC, a portion of the bread is added to the cup after the Fraction. I have not personally seen it done but I am sure there are Anglo-Catholics who follow that custom. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few Charismatics do it too, mimicking something they saw on Youtube or Facebook about liturgy. But, I highly doubt the minuscule morsel that is dropped into the cup would cause any real reaction considering the minimal sip of wine that most parishioners receive.

Paidiske · Jul 25, 2017

I've seen bread added to the cup after the fraction. (I don't do it myself, but I'd say it wouldn't be so uncommon with older priests of a particular stripe).

From what I've been told by coeliacs with severe problems, any exposure to gluten can both make them sick for days, and lead to ongoing damage to their intestinal lining, (causing problems absorbing nutrients even after the gluten is gone). It really is something I think we need to take seriously.

rhartsc · Jul 25, 2017

Some dip their host in the wine and there maybe backwash. The priests I have seen won't even touch a regular host/bread and then touch a gluten free host because of fear of cross contamination. I think there needs to be reasonable accommodation: a chalice or cup just for those suffering from celiac. This past Sunday I visited a Lutheran Church and they had rice host(s). Only one person seemed to need it but I glad that they were able to participate.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 1, 2017

We offer gluten free bread and non-alcoholic wine, but we never, ever, dip.

mark46 · Aug 7, 2017

Albion said:
I do think that the RCC has found some way to accommodate such communicants and I would think that she has held to a pretty strict standard.

Accommodation?

Why the Catholic Church bans gluten-free communion wafers

Yes, communicants can take only the wine, as both are not required.

mark46 · Aug 7, 2017

I am somewhat confused by the legalism is some of this discussion.

Yes, I strongly agree that coca cola is inappropriate.

And yes, Scripture does indicate bread and wine. The Orthodox believe that bread means bread and not wafers that resemble Wheat Thins. Many Christian groups use unfermented wine. Many Protestant groups had a large portion of their congregations that had trouble with alcohol. So, the symbolism seemed better in using grape juice. Personally, I see no problem with any of this. In fact, personally, I think rice bread is more reasonable than wafers in many parts of the world. I personally believe that the RCC's decision to reject gluten-free wafers was truly a terrible decision.

IMHO, what is important for us is the sacrament (the mystery as he Greeks call it) where the bread and wine become for us the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Albion · Aug 8, 2017

I can't agree that it doesn't matter what you use for the elements so long as it's similar to the original, but then when you say that wafers are suspect for resembling Wheat Thins, I am somewhat confused since "wafers," i.e hosts, ARE wheat.

mark46 · Aug 8, 2017

Albion said:
I can't agree that it doesn't matter what you use for the elements so long as it's similar to the original, but then when you say that wafers are suspect for resembling Wheat Thins, I am somewhat confused since "wafers," i.e hosts, ARE wheat.

My point is that Scripture seems to say to use bread. Wafers are NOT bread. So, one can focus on Western requirement of wheat wafers, rather than focusing on the intent of Scripture, which may be different. I suspect that early Christians would be very comfortable with barley or rice bread and would look askance at wafers. It seems that "bread and wine" are meant to be common elements, not unusual elements that often must be ordered from religious supply houses, certainly in much of the world.

Albion · Aug 8, 2017

mark46 said:
My point is that Scripture seems to say to use bread. Wafers are NOT bread.

So what is bread? How much leaven is required? What shape must the loaf be? Etc.

So, one can focus on Western requirement of wheat wafers

To my knowledge, there's no such requirement.

It seems that "bread and wine" are meant to be common elements, not unusual elements that often must be ordered from religious supply houses, certainly in much of the world.

Sort of a personal opinion, isn't it? I mean, hardly any church of any sort does that.

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