Election

[TransmitterTech]

CLICK ON LETTER TO ENLARGE IT.

 

[Resha Caner]

I don't think this election is nearly as pivotal as you indicate, neither is whom we should vote for as starkly contrasted as you indicate, nor will the outcome be as cataclysmic if your favorite candidate doesn't win.

Israel lived in bondage to Babylon and Rome. Yet we're still here.

I would ask if you think 1 Corinthians 5:12 is relevant here?

 

[standingtall]

Vote whoever you want to vote for folks. It is a precious freedom. Your salvation does not rest on who you vote for, nor does the salvation of this world.

Jesus is NOT a Republican, Democrat, or member of any other political party.

 

[TransmitterTech]

I don't think this election is nearly as pivotal as you indicate, neither is whom we should vote for as starkly contrasted as you indicate, nor will the outcome be as cataclysmic if your favorite candidate doesn't win.

Israel lived in bondage to Babylon and Rome. Yet we're still here.

I would ask if you think 1 Corinthians 5:12 is relevant here?

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

There is a difference between judging a person and judging their sin. We are to judge the sin of those in the church and I believe that voting to support abortion, same sex marriage, and atheistic idealism is a sin. The point here is not judgement but the cause and effect of continuing down the pathway we are going. I believe that if we continue the way we are going, the the country that we once knew will no longer exist and will no longer be able to be a light to the world as God intended!

 

[TransmitterTech]

Vote whoever you want to vote for folks. It is a precious freedom. Your salvation does not rest on who you vote for, nor does the salvation of this world.

Jesus is NOT a Republican, Democrat, or member of any other political party.

What are you doing on a Christian conservative site? This is opposite of what the church should be telling folks. Sad. Jesus is not a politician but he will judge sin and how a person votes does open his heart for all to see!!!!

 

[Resha Caner]

We are to judge the sin of those in the church ...

Yes, but the U.S. is not a church.

... and I believe that voting to support abortion, same sex marriage, and atheistic idealism is a sin.

I agree abortion and same sex marriage are sins. I've no problem with working to end those practices. But if you stop those practices, will it save those Americans who don't have faith in Christ?

I believe that if we continue the way we are going, the the country that we once knew will no longer exist ...

Shrug. And?

... and will not longer be able to be a light to the world as God intended!

Umm. Are you claiming God has revealed to you that the U.S. is "chosen" in some sense? I'd be interested to know where you get that from.

 

[TransmitterTech]

Yes, but the U.S. is not a church.



I agree abortion and same sex marriage are sins. I've no problem with working to end those practices. But if you stop those practices, will it save those Americans who don't have faith in Christ?

Of course not. I'm not talking about salvation, I'm talking about the consequences of staying on our present course as a nation.

Shrug. And?



Umm. Are you claiming God has revealed to you that the U.S. is "chosen" in some sense? I'd be interested to know where you get that from.

It doesn't take special revelation to see that God used this country from its inception to be a light to the world. Who protects Israel? Who stopped the Nazis? Who sends the most missionaries out in the field? Who gives the most money to those in need? What other nation is considered a "Christian" nation?

 

[miamited]

Hi TT,

I understand your frustration, but...

I've read the Scriptures. Therefore, I expect this to happen. God does not lie.

However, I think that our 'fight' to turn the world, of course in your post you are mainly speaking of the US, to be a godly people, is a lost cause. If I understand Jesus' warning to his disciples correctly, not only will the world at large be lost, but quite a few of those who proclaim their identity as christians aren't going to find their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Please don't take this as meaning that I think we shouldn't continue to evangelize, I do. But evangelism seems to be best carried on by the majority of us on a one to one basis and not a 'save the world' mentality. Most of us have the opportunity to tell a few of our loved ones and acquaintances about the truth of God and offer as much help as the Holy Spirit allows us in helping that individual to understand.

But, let me address a couple of the issues in your 'letter'. People are sinners. Governments are the earthly leaders of the nations for which they reign over. Therefore, in a representative government such as ours, we should fully expect that the laws and rule of such government will be pretty much in line with what most people want. God is not about saving governments or saving people through the rule of some earthly government. If the government wants to make abortions legal, then that is what they will do. It is not up to the government to offer the way of salvation to its people. If an individual, however, chooses to accept the rule of government and have an abortion, then that is the responsibility of the individual. Let's understand that the government is not telling anyone to have an abortion, they are only making it a legal procedure if someone chooses to have an abortion. Salvation has always been and will always be up to the choice of the individual. My mother can't save me by teaching me about God. She can only teach me about God in hopes that I will believe her and accept God's terms for myself.

Likewise, what the government does or doesn't deem as legal, isn't going to save anyone. Further, if someone does get an abortion at some time in their life, that action does not preclude them from finding God's salvation. It is only one of the sins that Jesus will have had to die for that they might be cleansed of their sin. We are all sinners! Some of us liars, some of us cheats, some of us adulterers, some of us murderers and a great many of us guilty of many multiples of sin.

So, my encouragement, let the government make abortion legal. Our job is to lead individuals to Jesus so that their sin can be forgiven. No matter which of the above sins, and others, they may have committed in their life. Our job, despite the legality of abortion, is not to have one. One's salvation is dependent on how that one lives their life no matter the law of the land.

Take Daniel. He lived in a land of godless people. However, he kept himself pure. Even though the law was that people should bow down to a false God, Daniel himself refused. That's how we should live. Let the government do what the government will do. Let us, individually, do what God asks us to do.

Also, on this issue of same sex marriage, if I am correct in what I'm seeing, it is the very fact that many of the state governments are now grappling with this issue and making their own laws that the federal government has even had to get involved in it. This issue all started because a few states wanted to legalize same sex marriages. It didn't start with the federal government and then work down to the states, but rather started with a few states and has worked up to the federal government.

But again, what God asks of us is not to change governments or change the world, but rather to share the truth with those with whom we have contact to change an individual. The world, according to the Scriptures, is going to become more and more and more wicked. It is this prevalence of wickedness that is going to cause God to one day stand up from His throne and declare, 'Enough!! Son! Go get your children.' On that day, those of us whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will rejoice that our salvation draws very, very near.

Consider that even if you or some group is able to change the laws of our nation to make abortion and same sex marriage illegal...you won't have caused a single individual to find God's way of salvation. That only comes from one understanding who God is and what He asks of us in order that on the day of His great judgment, one's name will be found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again TT,

BTW, Just for curiosity, who is it that you would encourage people to vote for? Near as I can tell, these two issues haven't even been discussed by most of the candidate that are running. Who is it that will be on the ballot who says they are going to take a strong stand to change these two issues?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Resha Caner]

Of course not. I'm not talking about salvation, I'm talking about the consequences of staying on our present course as a nation.

So what? Does God care about nations or is it the people he cares about?

It doesn't take special revelation to see that God used this country from its inception to be a light to the world.

I don't see it.

Who protects Israel?

Israel is definitely an American ally in the Mideast, but why does God care about our politics? Why does God care about protecting Israel? Will an Israeli be saved if he/she doesn't have faith in Christ? Now that Christ has come and the Church is his body, what is Israel's purpose?

Who stopped the Nazis?

You might want to ask the Europeans that question or the Russians who lost far more soldiers than we did ... or even the Germans who died opposing the Nazis (e.g. Bonhoeffer). We didn't do it alone, and couldn't have done it alone. Even FDR realized that.

But again, suppose the Nazis had won WWII. Do you think that would end Christianity? Hitler could have beaten God?

Who sends the most missionaries out in the field?

Christian churches send missionaries, not the U.S. I once met a missionary who was sent from Bolivia to the U.S.

Who gives the most money to those in need?

It's about the money?

What other nation is considered a "Christian" nation?

The U.S. is not a Christian nation ... but maybe you need to tell me how the Bible defines a Christian nation - or at least how you do.

But, to answer your question, there are Christians all over the world, and they have influenced many nations. There's nothing special about the U.S. in that regard.

 

[TransmitterTech]

Hi TT,

I understand your frustration, but...

I've read the Scriptures. Therefore, I expect this to happen. God does not lie.

However, I think that our 'fight' to turn the world, of course in your post you are mainly speaking of the US, to be a godly people, is a lost cause. If I understand Jesus' warning to his disciples correctly, not only will the world at large be lost, but quite a few of those who proclaim their identity as christians aren't going to find their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Please don't take this as meaning that I think we shouldn't continue to evangelize, I do. But evangelism seems to be best carried on by the majority of us on a one to one basis and not a 'save the world' mentality. Most of us have the opportunity to tell a few of our loved ones and acquaintances about the truth of God and offer as much help as the Holy Spirit allows us in helping that individual to understand.

But, let me address a couple of the issues in your 'letter'. People are sinners. Governments are the earthly leaders of the nations for which they reign over. Therefore, in a representative government such as ours, we should fully expect that the laws and rule of such government will be pretty much in line with what most people want. God is not about saving governments or saving people through the rule of some earthly government. If the government wants to make abortions legal, then that is what they will do. It is not up to the government to offer the way of salvation to its people. If an individual, however, chooses to accept the rule of government and have an abortion, then that is the responsibility of the individual. Let's understand that the government is not telling anyone to have an abortion, they are only making it a legal procedure if someone chooses to have an abortion. Salvation has always been and will always be up to the choice of the individual. My mother can't save me by teaching me about God. She can only teach me about God in hopes that I will believe her and accept God's terms for myself.

Likewise, what the government does or doesn't deem as legal, isn't going to save anyone. Further, if someone does get an abortion at some time in their life, that action does not preclude them from finding God's salvation. It is only one of the sins that Jesus will have had to die for that they might be cleansed of their sin. We are all sinners! Some of us liars, some of us cheats, some of us adulterers, some of us murderers and a great many of us guilty of many multiples of sin.

So, my encouragement, let the government make abortion legal. Our job is to lead individuals to Jesus so that their sin can be forgiven. No matter which of the above sins, and others, they may have committed in their life. Our job, despite the legality of abortion, is not to have one. One's salvation is dependent on how that one lives their life no matter the law of the land.

Take Daniel. He lived in a land of godless people. However, he kept himself pure. Even though the law was that people should bow down to a false God, Daniel himself refused. That's how we should live. Let the government do what the government will do. Let us, individually, do what God asks us to do.

Also, on this issue of same sex marriage, if I am correct in what I'm seeing, it is the very fact that many of the state governments are now grappling with this issue and making their own laws that the federal government has even had to get involved in it. This issue all started because a few states wanted to legalize same sex marriages. It didn't start with the federal government and then work down to the states, but rather started with a few states and has worked up to the federal government.

But again, what God asks of us is not to change governments or change the world, but rather to share the truth with those with whom we have contact to change an individual. The world, according to the Scriptures, is going to become more and more and more wicked. It is this prevalence of wickedness that is going to cause God to one day stand up from His throne and declare, 'Enough!! Son! Go get your children.' On that day, those of us whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will rejoice that our salvation draws very, very near.

Consider that even if you or some group is able to change the laws of our nation to make abortion and same sex marriage illegal...you won't have caused a single individual to find God's way of salvation. That only comes from one understanding who God is and what He asks of us in order that on the day of His great judgment, one's name will be found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I've always appreciated your posts Ted but I still don't think you understand where I'm coming from and only time is really going to bring about the point I'm making. In the mean time, I'm just saying that if this election goes back to the liberals then I'm done with politics. That's a personal decision and nothing I recommend to anyone else. I just think there's The Lord's work to do out there and I need to concentrate on that work. I'll still vote conservative but that's about it. The Bible says God puts our leadership in place so to me that means He is bringing about consequences for a nation who has turned its back on Him.

Bless you also. I really do appreciate you.

 

[Resha Caner]

But, let me address a couple of the issues in your 'letter'. People are sinners. Governments are the earthly leaders of the nations for which they reign over. Therefore, in a representative government such as ours, we should fully expect that the laws and rule of such government will be pretty much in line with what most people want. God is not about saving governments or saving people through the rule of some earthly government. If the government wants to make abortions legal, then that is what they will do. It is not up to the government to offer the way of salvation to its people. If an individual, however, chooses to accept the rule of government and have an abortion, then that is the responsibility of the individual. Let's understand that the government is not telling anyone to have an abortion, they are only making it a legal procedure if someone chooses to have an abortion. Salvation has always been and will always be up to the choice of the individual. My mother can't save me by teaching me about God. She can only teach me about God in hopes that I will believe her and accept God's terms for myself.

Likewise, what the government does or doesn't deem as legal, isn't going to save anyone. Further, if someone does get an abortion at some time in their life, that action does not preclude them from finding God's salvation. It is only one of the sins that Jesus will have had to die for that they might be cleansed of their sin. We are all sinners! Some of us liars, some of us cheats, some of us adulterers, some of us murderers and a great many of us guilty of many multiples of sin.

So, my encouragement, let the government make abortion legal. Our job is to lead individuals to Jesus so that their sin can be forgiven. No matter which of the above sins, and others, they may have committed in their life. Our job, despite the legality of abortion, is not to have one. One's salvation is dependent on how that one lives their life no matter the law of the land.

Well said.

 

[standingtall]

What are you doing on a Christian conservative site? This is opposite of what the church should be telling folks. Sad. Jesus is not a politician but he will judge sin and how a person votes does open his heart for all to see!!!!

Where in my post did I say I was a liberal? Read my profile.

I believe folks should vote how they want to vote without Pharisees telling them they're sinning if they vote one way or another.......it's called freedom.

Since Roe vs Wade in 1973 (effectively making abortion legal in the U.S.) we've been through 4 Republican presidents - 23 years - and 10 years of a Republican majority Congress. Abortion is still legal. When are folks going to get it through their heads that voting Republican is not going to change that? Only a nationwide change of heart will.

I'm a registered Republican and I vote Republican 90% of the time....but I realize that I'm voting for someone to fill a secular position of office, not a religious position.

 

[Resha Caner]

I believe folks should vote how they want to vote without Pharisees telling them they're sinning if they vote one way or another.......it's called freedom.

Since Roe vs Wade in 1973 (effectively making abortion legal in the U.S.) we've been through 4 Republican presidents and 10 years of a Republican majority Congress. Abortion is still legal. When are folks going to get it through their heads that voting Republican is not going to change that? Only a nationwide change of heart will.

I'm a registered Republican and I vote Republican 90% of the time....but I realize that I'm voting for someone to fill a secular position of office, not a religious position.

More good comments. I might adjust one phrase. Rather than people voting however they want, I would hope they consider Christian morality and not pretend the two are unrelated. I would hope they have some discussions about the issues with their Christian brothers and sisters. But I do know what you mean about the pharasaic mindset. I had to deal with that in college - the heydey of the Christian Coalition.

 

[standingtall]

I would hope they consider Christian morality and not pretend the two are unrelated.

Here's how the majority of the people vote nowadays:

1) Who is going to ensure I keep getting my government subsidies?

2) Who is going to keep us from being over-taxed?

3) Who is going to keep us economically viable?

4) Who is going to help me get a bigger paycheck?

5) Who is more likely to ensure that I am not a target of discrimination?

6) Who is going to ensure that my health insurance rate will not go through the roof?

7) Who is more than likely to keep allowing me to live the "American Dream" (whatever one's definition of that may be)?

etc, etc....

As miamited alluded to earlier....the majority of platforms that Republican and Democratic are running on are not theistically moral in nature.

 

[miamited]

Hi TT,

Well, to be honest, I gave up on political agendas long ago. I have for several years now understood and believed the Scriptures. Paul wrote the letter to the Romans with these very days in mind. I'm satisfied so long as God blesses me to live in a nation of people where I am, individually, free to worship Him. But even that, I expect to become endangered as we march inexorably to the last of the latter days. I also consider it a blessing that I live in a nation where I am reasonably free to tell others, maybe not from a loud speaker in a stadium, but I can talk to my friends, co-workers and family about the one true and living God without fear of prison.

I don't have anything against President Obama. I believe he has worked in the capacity of his duties to govern in a manner that has been, overall, good for our nation. We are certainly, economically, much better off today than we were 6 years ago when he took over the reigns of our national government. I still enjoy the freedoms which I mentioned above and don't see any immediate threat from him or his presidency that those things will change in the near future, but I do expect that it will. I have read the Scriptures. I know what's coming. Not only for the US, but for the world at large.

If you want a real laugh, look here:

Boehner Slams Obama's Foreign Policy Moves - MarketWatch

Boehner has always been a big blow hard to me. He makes worthless threats and I would much rather have President Obama as president than this guy. What a load of pig slop to say that President Bush would have punched Putin in the nose. I would be aghast if any president ever went to such measures in dealing with foreign policy. Of course, I also understand that a great part of this attitude is this 'us against them' attitude that our politics has become. Today the opposing parties have made a major goal of denying that anything the other party does is right...just because they are a part of the other party.

I live in South Carolina and we have a man by the name of Tim Scott who is running for the Senate seat. His ads are so refreshing. He doesn't waste one second of time tearing down the other guy, but speaks strictly of his vision and what he wants to do if he is elected. He doesn't bad mouth the other candidates and try to make points showing all the 'wicked' things that other politicians have done. He is a graduate of Charleston Southern and Presbyterian College and, to me, exemplifies what someone running for a political office should be doing.

If he wants to change something that has been accepted or approved before, he just says that this is what he wants to do. He doesn't name call the other guy for what he has done. He doesn't denigrate the work of his political predecessors. He just says, 'This is what I want to do'. Says how he thinks it is the right thing to do and goes on.

Today, I get sick of ads that bear false witness about what others have done to tear them down so that they can build themselves up. If someone has a better plan, fine. Tell us what your goals and plans are for your time in office if elected and let the people decide if they are in line with their goals and plans. So many political ads today try to paint their opponent as being 'like Obama'. Quite frankly, I haven't found President Obama's presidency to be much better or worse than anyone else's. He's just a man and he chose to run for president of the United States. He was duly elected and as far as I'm concerned, unless he really should start running things in the ground, get's to fulfill the office for which he was elected.

I was satisfied with most of the presidencies that have preceded his. As I think back upon the last 20-30 years of presidents, Bill Clinton seems to be the worst to me. Not because of any political agenda or goals, but merely because of his lack of moral strength.

I'm pretty satisfied to let the country run as the individual in charge runs it. Further, a lot of what these blabber talkers say to tear down President Obama and those who 'supported' him, is not something that he had any control of. Our laws are not generally made by the president. Our laws come from the Congress and all the president gets to do is give a final yay or nay by signing the law or vetoing the law, but those rights can be overcome if people really don't want the laws to take effect.

All too often, we individually think that something the President or Congress does doesn't sit right with us and we think that everyone must think like me. Your issue of abortion is a very good example. Christians think that everyone should be against abortion. Well, guess what, neither are the non-christians not against abortion but, according to many, many polls, there are a very, very, very many 'christians' who are not against abortion. Here are some recent poll numbers:

According to the poll, 27% say that abortion should be legal in all circumstances, 13% say it should be legal in most circumstances, 38% say that it should be legal in few circumstances, and 20% say abortion should always be illegal....Most Americans have never favored using public funds for abortions for women who cannot afford them. According to the survey, 56% remain opposed, with only 39% favoring public funding for abortions.

And the 'illegal' position is down 4% from what it was in 2011. The same poll had these numbers then:

When asked, “Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal under only certain circumstances, legal in a few circumstances or illegal in all circumstances? ” CNN found the same 25 percent and 21 percent want either all abortions legal or all illegal. But, breaking down that 53 percent group further, CNN shows just 12 percent want abortions legal in most circumstances while 41 percent want most abortions to be made illegal.

In total, 62 percent of Americans want all or most abortions to be prohibited while only 37 percent of Americans want all or most abortions kept legal — the position of President Barack Obama and Planned Parenthood, the nation’s biggest abortion business.

So, this idea that most Americans are against abortions is not a clear position. Only 20% of people, as of 2014, were adamantly against abortion in all circumstances. Once we begin to work on what should be allowed and what shouldn't, then it gets a whole lot muddier. It would seem to me that many who think abortion should be allowed in 'some' circumstances would vote to legalize abortion if the only choice is yes or no that abortion is illegal.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Albion]

TT, I sympathize with a lot of what you're thinking. This could indeed be a critical election for the future of our country. In fact, I think that anyone who dismisses that possibility out of hand just hasn't been paying much attention to events over the past six years or so.

But I do agree with some of what the others have said. This isn't a forum for political debates (there are others that are for that purpose) and it is unlikely that "the end" of America or the world is at hand if we continue in the direction we've been going. Even the Roman Empire was in decline for several hundred years before the so-called "Fall" occurred. That's no reason not to be concerned, however, since those were awful, violent, undemocratic years for a once free people.