Election:Talk is cheap

[Reformationist]

Consider the set consisting of every human. It contains two subsets, one, the elect (E) and two, everyone else (U).

Okay.

1.Does the E set contain everyone who seeks God?

Yes. However, just to qualify that, "everyone who seeks God" are those who have been regenerated. Natural man does not seek God (Rom 3:11).

I agree that it does if "everyone" contains some Mormons, Jews, and Moslems.

I have no clue who the elect are, nor does anyone else. That's why we are commissioned to share the Gospel with ALL people.

2. Does the E set contain everyone who has a true desire for salvation in Christ?

Inclusion in the "E set" and subsequent regeneration is what creates in man a true desire for salvation in Christ out of love for Him. All others, ostensibly, those in the "U set," never desire to serve Christ out of love. Rather, they seek that which we Christians know only Christ provides so we make the assumption that they are seek Christ. Unfortunately, in the case of those in the "U set," they never seek the Benefactor but only the benefits.

3. Is the "true desire . . Christ" set a subset of the "Everyone who seeks God" set?

No. Everyone who seeks God out of a true love to serve the Lord in obedience comprise the "E set." However, no one aside from God can know the reason someone seeks Him so this is not very helpful to us in determining who God's chosen are.

4. How does a person know if he has a true or a false desire for salvation in Christ?

Well, according to the Word of God those who "go out from" the children of God do so to show that they never were a child of God (1 John 2:19). "Go out from" does not indicative of the seasons of sin that many true Christians endure. The point is that they "endure." "Go out from" means "to forsake." Those who forsake the Lord show they were never a child of God.

So, the answer to question #4 is simply, our true desire for salvation will never leave us. A false desire for salvation will manifest itself by the simple fact of apostacy.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

*duplicate post*

 

[Flynmonkie]

I have no clue who the elect are, nor does anyone else. That's why we are commissioned to share the Gospel with ALL people.

So IT IS safe to say that it is possible that EVERYONE has the potential to be elect. That all have this oppourtunity but not all will be saved. Only God Himself knows who will not be open to salvation. Basicially this area is none of our business, but Gods alone.........because I am getting a different perspective from earlier posts on this regarding the Calvinsitic position.

 

[Reformationist]

So IT IS safe to say that it is possible that EVERYONE has the potential to be elect.

No. No one has the potential to be elect. You either are or you are not. Potential makes room for the possibility of change. God's election is immutable. If someone has not been elected unto salvation they will neither be saved nor will they desire to serve God out of a heart that loves Him and His Law.

That all have this oppourtunity but not all will be saved.

I can tell that the whole concept of God not giving some people the salvitic grace that He gives to the elect doesn't sit well with you. For that reason, and my desire to avoid offending you, I'll try to be gentle about this. We are NOT saved because we avail ourselves of the "opportunity." We are saved completely, solely, monergistically by the vicarious atonement of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness. Our salvation is the product of Another's work. We had absolutely no part in it whatsoever because it wasn't a decision we were part of.

Only God Himself knows who will not be open to salvation.

Again, God does not just know who will be open to salvation. He opens us to salvation, and then indwells us with His Spirit as a sign of His promise of our inclusion in His family, as His child. He made us accepted. He made us children of God. He did NOT do this because we were sensitive to the call or smart enough to avail ourselves of such an opportunity. Those who are "open to salvation" are those whose heart of stone God has removed and replaced with a heart of flesh. This is NOT a random set of people.

God bless

 

[theseed]

One comment about the salvation, anybody has the oportunity to come to Christ, but nobody is able to come, unless God gives life to thier dead spirit (regeneration by Spiritual baptism). Election does not relieve anyone of the responsiblity to have faith in Christ, but actually enables those elected people to fullfill the requirement of faith in Christ. Not even Adam and Eve sought God after they died, even though they had known God. They hid becasue they did not want their deeds exposed (john 3.18-21).

 

[Flynmonkie]

I can tell that the whole concept of God not giving some people the salvitic grace that He gives to the elect doesn't sit well with you. For that reason, and my desire to avoid offending you, I'll try to be gentle about this. We are NOT saved because we avail ourselves of the "opportunity." We are saved completely, solely, monergistically by the vicarious atonement of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness. Our salvation is the product of Another's work. We had absolutely no part in it whatsoever because it wasn't a decision we were part of.

You know that you do not offend me on this. We have had this discussion; I am really trying hard to understand your point of view. There are many things that I agree with you on but this point still remains a difference. Mostly because I have not read or studied many things outside of the bible. And the terminology sometimes leaves much to be desired for me. As I have said before, everything you say is valid to a degree, but I still do not see the balance in your approach. And I have serious doubts how either way of thinking will affect salvation. But as I have said before that is between the person and God, That is not for me to know.

However, I am very concerned about the image this puts out to others while sharing the Gospel. God, whom we all are very aware, is everything. He has control and power over anything and everything. Absolutely agreed.

But "election" as it is explained in the Calvinistic view, is most definitely understood by many -that Calvinists think they are the only "elect". Not to mention that God created us as puppets...for some nonsense reason, because he knows how everything will happen, who will be saved and whom won't so that makes them predestined to salvation or not. I worry about those poor souls out there that are greeted with this mixed up version of our God that say "Hey?? I guess I must be already dammed to hell since I was born, because I do not feel he loves me. So I must not be one of the elect. Not to mention everything I have been told about this whosoever and God loves all is false" When they have no true idea that we are all dammed to hell as sinners when we are born, until when called, by whatever means, that we hear his plans....we accept Christ and the Holy Spirit does its work on us finding Gods will and direction for our lives. I would have serious fear of God himself for instilling this thought in this manner into others heads effectively creating a stumbling block in their spiritual walk.. He is quite clear in the Bible, for God so loved the world -whosoever believes in him. It is God's very nature to love. The fact that God will send to eternal hell all sinners who persist in sin and unbelief proves His hatred toward them. On the other hand, the fact that God promises to forgive and bring into His eternal glory all who trust Christ as Savior-and even pleads with sinners to repent-proves His love toward them. That Love is offered to all of man. It is our choice to make or not. Just as we have free will in our walk with him as one of the "elect", to change our ways or not. We are all sinners and come short....that is when the Holy Spirit comes into play and we are regenerated. But we still make mistakes. Why, because we are still sinners, and we are not puppets, we have the choice to make good decisions all the time, we are incapable of this. Even with God, filled with the holy spirit. We will never be at that point....as the Glory of God, but we are to shoot for the closest we can be to Christlike that we are capable. That is one of the beautiful, marvelous aspects of His plan of salvation for us…. we are allowed to make that choice. He does not force us. Mans responsibility totally aligns with Gods unsurpassed power and control ~Scriptural and spiritually for me.

Here is a bit from a website…this is by John MacArthur. As that he is much better at explaining my position than I am I think. Take a stroll through it...and tell me what you think. I have highlighted those points that I think is where I disagree with what has been explained to me regarding the calvinistic POV of Election.



Love of God to the World: The Origin of the Plan of Salvation

THERE IS ANOTHER IDEA to which I wish for a little to turn your attention on this part of the subject. The love in which the economy of salvation originates, is love to the world. God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son. The term "world" is here just equivalent to mankind. It seems to be used by our Lord with a reference to the very limited and exclusive views of the Jews. They thought God loved them, and hated all the other nations of mankind. These were their own feelings, and they foolishly thought that God was altogether such an one as themselves. They accordingly expected that the Messiah was to come to deliver Israel, and to punish and destroy the other nations of the earth. But God's ways were not their ways, nor His thoughts their thoughts. As the heavens are high above the earth, so were His ways above their ways, and His thoughts above their thoughts (Isa. 55:8-9).

Some have supposed that the word "world" here is descriptive not of mankind generally, but of the whole of a particular class, that portion of mankind who, according to the Divine purpose of mercy, shall ultimately become partakers of the salvation of Christ. But this is to give to the term a meaning altogether unwarranted by the usage of Scripture. There can be no doubt in the mind of a person who understands the doctrine of personal election, that those who are actually saved are the objects of a special love on the part of God; and that the oblation of the Savior had a special design in reference to them. But there can be as little doubt, that the atonement of Christ has a general reference to mankind at large; and that it was intended as a display of love on the part of God to our guilty race. Not merely was the atonement offered by Christ Jesus sufficient for the salvation of the whole world, but it was intended and fitted to remove out of the way of the salvation of sinners generally every bar which the perfections of the Divine moral character and the principles of the Divine moral government presented. Without that atonement, no sinner could have been pardoned in consistency with justice. In consequence of that atonement, every sinner may be, and if he believe in Jesus certainly shall be, pardoned and saved. Through the medium of this atonement, the Divine Being is revealed to sinners, indiscriminately, as gracious and ready to forgive; and the invitations and promises warranting men to confide in Christ for salvation, are addressed to all, and are true and applicable to all without exception or restriction.

The revelation of mercy made in the gospel refers to men as sinners, not as elect sinners. Their election or their non-election is something of which, when called on to believe the gospel, they are necessarily entirely ignorant, and with which they have nothing to do. "The kindness and love of God … toward man," the Divine philanthropy, is revealed (***. 3:4). "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Cor. 5:19). He appears in the revelation of mercy as the God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; who willeth all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (Ezek. 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:3-4). "The grace of God" revealed in the gospel "brings salvation to all," without exception, who in the faith of the truth will receive it (***. 2:11).

I am persuaded that the doctrine of personal election is very plainly taught in Scripture; but I am equally persuaded that the minister misunderstands that doctrine who finds it, in the least degree, hampering him in presenting a full and a free salvation as the gift of God to every one who hears the gospel; and that the man abuses the doctrine who finds in it anything which operates as a barrier in the way of his receiving, as a sinner, all the blessings of the Christian salvation, in the belief of the truth. Indeed, when rightly understood, it can have no such effect. For what is that doctrine, but just this, in other words-It is absolutely certain that a vast multitude of the race of man shall be saved through Christ? And it is as certain, that if any one of those to whom that salvation is offered, remains destitute of it, and perishes eternally, it is entirely owing to his own obstinate refusal of what is freely, honestly, presented to him. The kindness of God, as manifested in the gift of His Son, is kindness to the race of man; and when, as an individual, I credit the kindness of God to man, so strangely displayed, so abundantly proved, I cannot find any reason why I should not depend on this kindness, and expect to be saved even as others.

Whenever a man hesitates about placing his dependence on the mercy of God, because he is not sure whether he be elected or not, he gives clear evidence that he does not yet understand the gospel. He does not apprehend the manifestation of the love of God to man. When he sees God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, he does not need to ask, "Is the plan of mercy such as I am warranted to embrace? may I not somehow be excluded from availing myself of it?" These, and similar suggestions, which draw away his mind from the voice of God to the speculations of his own mind, are no more regarded. He sees God rich in mercy, ready to forgive; just, and the justifier of the ungodly. He cannot but place his confidence in Him. "Jehovah," as it has been happily said, by the manifestation of what he has done, especially in sending Christ, and delivering Him up, the just in the room of the unjust, pleads His own cause with such subduing pathos that there is no more power of resistance: but the person who is the object of the demonstration yields himself up to the authority and glory of the truth. The sinner, thus cordially believing the Gospel, gladly and gratefully receives "the Savior of the world" as his Savior, and trusts that by the grace of God he shall partake of "the common salvation."


What does the Bible teach about election?

Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.

The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin-- spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.

The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Acts 16 tells us that Lydia was saved when, " . . . the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 2:8 suggests that even our faith is a gift from God.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."

Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.
If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).

In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

http://www.gty.org/IssuesandAnswers/archive/election.htm

 

[Reformationist]

You know that you do not offend me on this.

Well, that's good. This is a touchy subject for most people. I'm glad that you're not offended. If I do happen to offend you please let me know so I may apologize and reword my opinion.

And I have serious doubts how either way of thinking will affect salvation. But as I have said before that is between the person and God, That is not for me to know.

It won't affect our salvation. It will, however, affect how we view God and the way in which we worship Him. If we see Him as primarily, but not solely, responsible for our salvation we are still apt to credit ourselves with, AT THE LEAST, making the right choice. This WILL affect the way we worship God. This WILL affect our humility. This WILL affect our ability to see the magnitude of God's mercy on us.

But "election" as it is explained in the Calvinistic view, is most definitely understood by many -that Calvinists think they are the only "elect". Not to mention that God created us as puppets...for some nonsense reason, because he knows how everything will happen, who will be saved and whom won't so that makes them predestined to salvation or not.

No studied Calvinist I have ever met believes that only Calvinists are God's elect or believes that we are puppets.

God bless,
Don

 

[Flynmonkie]

Well, that's good. This is a touchy subject for most people. I'm glad that you're not offended. If I do happen to offend you please let me know so I may apologize and reword my opinion.

Naw don't worry about me, I will let you know. I do not think that you intend any harm with anything I have ever seen you try to express. However, you are very strong in your faith, this is not a bad thing! I am humble enough to know I have a lot to learn, I encourage other views, so I can either embrace because it is correct, or debunk them! Now you start saying God is in error or that type of perspective....that brings on a whole new side of me, not too many like to see....but that is another thread.

It won't affect our salvation. It will, however, affect how we view God and the way in which we worship Him. If we see Him as primarily, but not solely, responsible for our salvation we are still apt to credit ourselves with, AT THE LEAST, making the right choice. This WILL affect the way we worship God. This WILL affect our humility. This WILL affect our ability to see the magnitude of God's mercy on us.

I agree it will affect how we view God. Fear -attributing it all to him is so very important, as we are saved truly we realize, that is the only way....his regeneration of us. But when he calls, there is that chance that we do not listen...this is where choice comes into play. If we listen, we become elect...This can be said from both perspectives.....I think they merge somewhere....a healthy balance...rather than one way. It is obvious that he is greater than anything....but we all have that ability to be elect. We do not know his reason for choosing some over others however, he will not forsake those whom seek him. Again offering us that choice.This is so very important to make others aware. My biggest problem with Calvins teaching...just not enough balance in this area. I am very sure that he will not send some to hell even if they (earnestly and truly) believe in him. Goes against everything he claims. Calvin, I agree with many points, but just as other teachers and scholars I have read..no one is perfect.

No studied Calvinist I have ever met believes that only Calvinists are God's elect or believes that we are puppets.

Nope I do not believe in Blanket statements in this area for sure! I have not met a Calvinist that truly thinks this way. I don't really think so either, but when this point is emphasized to the extent it is without a balance....there is room for misrepresentation. Just as was mentioned earlier in this thread.