Elect infants

Jon_

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Elderone said:
I believe it would be fair to say the reformed position would be silence, as is His word, knowing God's justice is true.

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
I'm with Roger. I think that when it comes to the salvation of others, we really can't know anything definitively. This is precisely why judgment is condemned so harshly. I am not opposed to the idea that elect infants who die are elect. I am opposed to the idea that all infants are elect by default.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Imblessed

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Jon_ said:
II am not opposed to the idea that elect infants who die are elect. I am opposed to the idea that all infants are elect by default.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
I suppose in a round about way that makes sense......;)

But I agree, I really do. The problem is when is "infancy" over and "childhood" beginning? are they all elect before age 1? 2? 5? 12?

This reasoning assumes that all children born are "good" to a certain age, when we know by scripture that all children are born sinful (anyone who's got kids know they don't start out nice and get bad, but that you have to teach children to be "good".

that is why I would never say with authority that infants who die are elect by default.

But I can say that since God knows what infants are going to die, that it would be easy to see how He would choose those ones to come back to Him in heaven.

BTW, since the OP was asking the reformed view, and I'm not "technically" reformed(mainly because of my believe in credobaptism), if you all want me to stay out of the discussion, feel free to tell me---I'm joining in because this topic interests me quite a bit........
 
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Elderone

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Imblessed said:
The problem is when is "infancy" over and "childhood" beginning? are they all elect before age 1? 2? 5? 12?

The following may help with your question. These two paragraphs are from the "Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3"

3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9, Eph_1:11; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph_1:6, Eph_1:12).


3:7 The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Mat_11:25, Mat_11:26; Rom_9:17, Rom_9:18, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:22; 2Ti_2:19, 2Ti_2:20; 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4).

Thus, elect and non-elect are such before the beginning of time.


BTW, since the OP was asking the reformed view, and I'm not "technically" reformed(mainly because of my believe in credobaptism), if you all want me to stay out of the discussion, feel free to tell me---I'm joining in because this topic interests me quite a bit........

Hang around and be part of the discussion.
 
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Imblessed

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that's what I'm getting at Elderone, and that's the reason I believe that the best course of action is to admit that we don't know and leave it at that.

If you start assuming this and assuming that, you have to take into account everyone's different views of when infancy and childhood are, and then you have people who want to make exceptions, and those who believe one way until they are faced with the reality of a child dying, etc etc. It gets complicated fast.

We all know (here in the reformed room) that Predestination is biblical, and we must trust in God based on that knowledge.

I was very pleasantly suprised that my Pastor did not try to sugar coat it or try to make that one lady feel better by telling her what she wanted to hear. It certainly make me even more respectful of him and glad that I go to that church. How many pastors would have the nerve to say that in front of 800 some people? Not enough, unfortunately!
 
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Elderone

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Imblessed said:
the best course of action is to admit that we don't know and leave it at that.

Putting words in God's mouth isn't smart, a perfect example of "Fools rushing in where angels fear to tread."


Imblessed said:
I was very pleasantly suprised that my Pastor did not try to sugar coat it or try to make that one lady feel better by telling her what she wanted to hear. It certainly make me even more respectful of him and glad that I go to that church. How many pastors would have the nerve to say that in front of 800 some people? Not enough, unfortunately!

Sounds as though your Pastor has his head screwed on straight... wishing to teach God's word correctly rather than tickle the ears of the congregation. We need to ask God for more like him.
 
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ps139

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Jon_ said:
I'm with Roger. I think that when it comes to the salvation of others, we really can't know anything definitively. This is precisely why judgment is condemned so harshly.
Do you believe this principle applies to your own salvation as well?

BTW, thanks to all who have contributed, I haven't posted much in this thread but I have been reading it as it is interesting and I thank you all for your participation. :)
 
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tigersnare

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ps139 said:
Do you believe this principle applies to your own salvation as well?

BTW, thanks to all who have contributed, I haven't posted much in this thread but I have been reading it as it is interesting and I thank you all for your participation. :)

If I could answer,

Personal salvation we can be assured of, "the Spirit testifies with your spirit", "make your call and election sure", "you cry out Abba, Father!". We can be sure of these things.
 
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Jon_

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ps139 said:
Do you believe this principle applies to your own salvation as well?

BTW, thanks to all who have contributed, I haven't posted much in this thread but I have been reading it as it is interesting and I thank you all for your participation. :)
No, I am sure of my calling.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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rnmomof7

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ps139 said:
Good day all :wave:

I saw BBAS64 post this CH Spurgeon quote in another thread:



Is this representative of Calvinist thought as a whole?

I think the answer is yes, and if so, do you believe that if hypothetically these babies grew up, they would never fall from grace? No matter who they are?
Or is the answer more like, "The Lord willed to take them as infants, there is no other possible alternative."

Thanks in advance. :)

Bill I do not know the eternity of infants when they die, and neither did Spurgeon and neither do you :)

Scripture is silent on the fate of infants that die in the womb or in early childhood.

Some men that wanted to make people feel good made up the age of "accountability " and declared that before that they are automatically saved. There is no scripture to confirm that belief.

Now here is a Protestant problem with that.

It would mean there are 2 kinds of people in heaven, those that are saved by the grace and mercy of God and those that deserve it based on their innocence.

But the bible tells us that we are born sinners, not innocent.

The fact is there is only one type of person in heaven, sinners saved by the grace and mercy of God.

I do not know where babies go if they die, but I do know this. I love and serve a mighty God that is both loving and just .

Justice would demand hell for everyone that dies, both adults and infants, but in His love God has made a way to save some with his mercy and grace.

I trust the God of my salvation to judge the infants correctly and justly

God asks us

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)


So I trust God to do what is right in His eyes. It is not necessary to conform Him to my image of what God should be
 
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That was well put,and not that hard to swallow at all.


rnmomof7 said:
Bill I do not know the eternity of infants when they die, and neither did Spurgeon and neither do you :)

Scripture is silent on the fate of infants that die in the womb or in early childhood.

Some men that wanted to make people feel good made up the age of "accountability " and declared that before that they are automatically saved. There is no scripture to confirm that belief.

Now here is a Protestant problem with that.

It would mean there are 2 kinds of people in heaven, those that are saved by the grace and mercy of God and those that deserve it based on their innocence.

But the bible tells us that we are born sinners, not innocent.

The fact is there is only one type of person in heaven, sinners saved by the grace and mercy of God.

I do not know where babies go if they die, but I do know this. I love and serve a mighty God that is both loving and just .

Justice would demand hell for everyone that dies, both adults and infants, but in His love God has made a way to save some with his mercy and grace.

I trust the God of my salvation to judge the infants correctly and justly

God asks us

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)


So I trust God to do what is right in His eyes. It is not necessary to conform Him to my image of what God should be
 
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theseed

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ps139 said:
Good day all :wave:

I saw BBAS64 post this CH Spurgeon quote in another thread:



Is this representative of Calvinist thought as a whole?

I think the answer is yes, and if so, do you believe that if hypothetically these babies grew up, they would never fall from grace? No matter who they are?
Or is the answer more like, "The Lord willed to take them as infants, there is no other possible alternative."

Thanks in advance. :)
I had a thread on the topic a good while back.

http://www.christianforums.com/t100939-all-children-inherit-salvation-a-look-at-guardian-angels.html
 
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ps139

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Jon D said:
I am opposed to the idea that all infants are elect by default.

I see how this would be problematic - because unless God can make one "unelect," then it would basically imply universalism, right?

If all babies are elect, and God does not "unchoose" people, then all people would have to be elect, correct? Or no?
 
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Jon_

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ps139 said:
I see how this would be problematic - because unless God can make one "unelect," then it would basically imply universalism, right?

If all babies are elect, and God does not "unchoose" people, then all people would have to be elect, correct? Or no?
Yes, that is certainly one of the considerations on the subject. Another consideration is that no man merits salvation apart from faith in Christ Jesus. So that is, unless a person is foreordained to faith, he or she is reprobate from the very beginning of his or her existence.

Actually, the issue is even more troubling than first appears. We know that "faith comes by hearing," but for infants, this would seem impossible; therefore, if an infant being born into sin is yet deprived of the "opportunity" to believe and perishes before such conditions would lead to salvific faith (of course, as ordained by God), then it would seem that all infants could be said to be reprobate, anachronistically (that is, if we look at it within just that specific timeframe). Of course, those that God has eternally decreed elect are eternally elect--and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

It might seem we can conclude that infants who die before faith are eternally reprobate. That is, they were predestined to die in such a state. This is contrasted against the blessed assurance of the elect who are persevered according to God's purposes. More specifically, God ensures that his elect will live at least long enough to reach the appointed hour of their regeneration and subsequent reception of his Son and Holy Spirit.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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rnmomof7

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Jon_ said:
Yes, that is certainly one of the considerations on the subject. Another consideration is that no man merits salvation apart from faith in Christ Jesus. So that is, unless a person is foreordained to faith, he or she is reprobate from the very beginning of his or her existence.

Actually, the issue is even more troubling than first appears. We know that "faith comes by hearing," but for infants, this would seem impossible; therefore, if an infant being born into sin is yet deprived of the "opportunity" to believe and perishes before such conditions would lead to salvific faith (of course, as ordained by God), then it would seem that all infants could be said to be reprobate, anachronistically (that is, if we look at it within just that specific timeframe). Of course, those that God has eternally decreed elect are eternally elect--and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

It might seem we can conclude that infants who die before faith are eternally reprobate. That is, they were predestined to die in such a state. This is contrasted against the blessed assurance of the elect who are persevered according to God's purposes. More specifically, God ensures that his elect will live at least long enough to reach the appointed hour of their regeneration and subsequent reception of his Son and Holy Spirit.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I had a 17 month old grandson that drowned in his other grandparents pool.

My son and his wife and the babys siblings all profess Christ as Savior .

In retrospect we can see the hand of God preparing the family for that day.
We believe that was a result of Gods love for my wonderful Christian son and family.

I would find it hard to believe that God would so carefully prepare the family for this beginning a year earlier and not have whispered into Nathan's ear as he was drawing his last breath.

I see John the Baptist regenerate in the womb, as the model of how God works in the hearts and mind of infants..

I will not know Nathans eternal fate until I too am gathered into the arms of my Savior . But I believe that God is sovereign over the salvation of men , and children and infants, and I believe He can give his word to a child that will save .

In the end, as we stand before Christ we will be as He is and see as He does and all of His work will be manifest and right in our eyes.. There will be no more questions
 
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theseed

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ps139 said:
I see how this would be problematic - because unless God can make one "unelect," then it would basically imply universalism, right?

If all babies are elect, and God does not "unchoose" people, then all people would have to be elect, correct? Or no?
Wow! 14000 posts!
 
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Elect

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One thing is for certain. If there are any infants that die that are not of the elect, then this would be an act of mercy on God's part. If a person that dies and goes to Hell then for him it would be better to die as an infant than as an old man that has spent a lifetime of filling up the cup of God's wrath.
 
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James1979

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Elect,

I disagree it would have been better of if the non-elect had never been born. Even if the infant die as a non-elect will very few small sins compared to someone who has live up to 99 with millions of sins. The very small sins is still horrible because you have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire for those very few sins or even just one sin.
 
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Jon_

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James1979 said:
Elect,

I disagree it would have been better of if the non-elect had never been born. Even if the infant die as a non-elect will very few small sins compared to someone who has live up to 99 with millions of sins. The very small sins is still horrible because you have to spend an eternity in the lake of fire for those very few sins or even just one sin.
Hi James. I don't think our brother was comparing a reprobate infant dying compared with never being born. Instead, his comparison was between a reprobate dying as an infant versus a reprobate dying after an whole life of sin and misery. In this sense, I agree with our brother's assertion.

I hope that clarifies the point made for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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James1979

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Jon,

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I just said that regardless if a infant is non-elect and the person who lives a very long time is a non-elect, both infant and the old age person is still are in a horrible situation when the infant sins are very small compared to the old age person.
 
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