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elder qualifications and sin

mont974x4

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1Ti 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
1Ti 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
1Ti 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
1Ti 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

We should note that there is a difference in this list. In 1 Timothy 3:6 we see that he is not to be a new convert, however that requirement is not listed in Titus. The church in question in Titus was largely a made up of new converts so none of them would have been qualified if a hard line was drawn on each item of the list. What we can learn from this is that it is the overall character of the man that is the issue and not so much a matter of using the lists as a be all end all checklist where each and everything must be met.

Now, what about sin? What happens when a man who is called to a position of pastor, or other leadership position, falls into sin? Well, I would suggest that it depends on the man. If he confesses and truly repents then he is treated like any other brother who sins and repents. He is fully restored with open arms. We may maintain better accountability to protect the man, the church, and the name of Christ. I can find no Scripture to support denying people the ability to obey their calling according to the will of God because of sin that has been repented of. I fully support church discipline when the brother is in sin. The goal of which is always full restoration.
The dangerous ground being held by some is that of being in a position of condemnation. They further condemn people who have rightfully dealt with their sin when God Himself does not. The bottom line is this is a denial of the power of Christ’s blood. They reject the validity of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They deny the validity of true repentance. They are saying that Christ’s blood, at best, only partially cleanses a person. They stand in the way of the person being obedient to calling of God on their lives.

If God faithfully casts our sin as far as the east is from the west and forgets them, do we justify recalling them and holding people down with them?

Please note that I firmly believe in biblical accountability. Biblical accountability is based on lines drawn by God, not us. Biblical accountability entails forgiveness, grace, mercy, and love. It does not excuse sin. It seeks full restoration.
 

Fireinfolding

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Hey Monte!! Long time no chit chat... Hey, would how Judas lost his office (who had part in the ministry) be taken into an account at all? Or no? How would one figure? Specially given a man be blameless and that devil thing going on between the whole deal there (Im busting on how I put that, sorry) ^_^
 
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Fireinfolding

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Judas never repented with an opportunity to be restored did he?

He had repented himself right? He took again the silver (just as its written of him). I dont know what you mean concerning having an "opportunity to be" restored (when he was judged he indeed saw he was condemned).

Do you feel he could have been restored? It was written how it with go with him and no mercy was to be shown to him.

You have read the psalms on him right?

Is it a bad idea to compare Judas to those who also might have part in the ministry? I mean afterall he chose all twelve and he knew one was a devil right?
 
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Frogster

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1Ti 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
1Ti 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
1Ti 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
1Ti 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

We should note that there is a difference in this list. In 1 Timothy 3:6 we see that he is not to be a new convert, however that requirement is not listed in Titus. The church in question in Titus was largely a made up of new converts so none of them would have been qualified if a hard line was drawn on each item of the list. What we can learn from this is that it is the overall character of the man that is the issue and not so much a matter of using the lists as a be all end all checklist where each and everything must be met.

Now, what about sin? What happens when a man who is called to a position of pastor, or other leadership position, falls into sin? Well, I would suggest that it depends on the man. If he confesses and truly repents then he is treated like any other brother who sins and repents. He is fully restored with open arms. We may maintain better accountability to protect the man, the church, and the name of Christ. I can find no Scripture to support denying people the ability to obey their calling according to the will of God because of sin that has been repented of. I fully support church discipline when the brother is in sin. The goal of which is always full restoration.
The dangerous ground being held by some is that of being in a position of condemnation. They further condemn people who have rightfully dealt with their sin when God Himself does not. The bottom line is this is a denial of the power of Christ’s blood. They reject the validity of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They deny the validity of true repentance. They are saying that Christ’s blood, at best, only partially cleanses a person. They stand in the way of the person being obedient to calling of God on their lives.

If God faithfully casts our sin as far as the east is from the west and forgets them, do we justify recalling them and holding people down with them?

Please note that I firmly believe in biblical accountability. Biblical accountability is based on lines drawn by God, not us. Biblical accountability entails forgiveness, grace, mercy, and love. It does not excuse sin. It seeks full restoration.

Persoanally,I think Pastors have become little kings.You bring out good points though,about restoring our brothers.But I think if they took on the role as a servant,it would be better,then if and when they do fall,is is not such a stressful thing,for the new converts.

In 1 Cor 4,Paul used himself and barn as examples.

Ps..another good thing would be for pastors to get a day job,like Paul did.Keeps the king grounded.:)

I know your a solid pastor:thumbsup:,but there is alot of abuse these days.
 
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mont974x4

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Thanks. I know there's a lot of issues. Pastors are dropping like flies from burn out and sin. Some act like kings, others are made into kings by the congregation. My main concern in this thread is how we handle pastors and other leaders who stumble. We are human after all.
 
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Frogster

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Thanks. I know there's a lot of issues. Pastors are dropping like flies from burn out and sin. Some act like kings, others are made into kings by the congregation. My main concern in this thread is how we handle pastors and other leaders who stumble. We are human after all.

Amen.:)
 
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revanneosl

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Originally the church was pretty hard on sin. If you committed any of the Big Three (murder, adultery or apostasy) after your baptism, you were just out - period. But after the Decian persecution in the middle of the third century, when so very many christians (including clergy) apostacised, the church had to figure out what to do with post-baptismal sin for both laypersons and clergy.

Different regions developed different standards for reconciliation. Clergy who committed less serious sins were given a period of penance and then restored to their former role. More serious sins resulted in a period of penance, followed by restoration to the church but a permanent deprivation of their role as a leader. The most serious sins could - in some places - result in repentance unto death and then restoration to the church on their deathbed, while in other places it could result in permanent expulsion from the church alltogether.

This isn't an opinion on how the church should behave today - just a little bit of historical info to help guide your discussion.
 
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Fireinfolding

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I would not say returning the silver was repentance. I do not want to get into a discussion of Judas here, you are correct in that he is not a rightful comparison for this thread.

Says "he repented himself", though I honestly Monte I really dont care (personally) I just stopped in to say "hi" to you (see my "Hi" up there?)

Only because its been a long time since I did (and I just needed "an excuse" to do just that) so I brought it up (jokingly so) but you appeared to want "to go there" (so I just followed your lead) ^_^

"Blameless"? Good luck with that nowadays huh?
 
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mont974x4

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Because I believe in the power of Christ and the Word of God. That is all I am going to say about Haggard. There's enough threads in him. If that's where you want to take my thread you can kindly leave it now, please.
 
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mont974x4

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sorry I am just trying to keep the thread focused on the issue at large and avoid the typical arguments over people that have been discussed enough.


Do you think some people cannot be forgiven? Do you think they cannot truly repent? What biblical basis do we have for saying a person can still do XYZ type ministry but not ABC? Or he can preach but not pastor? Or (essentiall) he has been forgiven by God but not by us?
 
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mont974x4

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I disagree with your position of restoration to elders who've allowed themselves to fall into sin, however I do believe in forgiveness.


ok, on what basis? Do you understand the apparent hypocrisy in your statement?
 
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