elder qualifications and sin

[DeaconDean]

sure. You'll get no argument from me on this. Am I missing something from your intent in this post?

My intent dear brother was to show that those who are in leadership positions with the church, are held to a higher standard than everybody else.

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." -Jas. 3:1 (KJV)

I am required to forgive and forget.

But, there are times when forgive and forget I cannot.

For example, Jimmy Swaggert.

Three times he was caught with a prostitute. The first time I can forgive. The second time I would remove him from the pulpit and make himself prove himself to the church before returning to the pulpit. The third times shows/proves to me, that he is living in sin and will not change.

I could not/would not, in good consciousness, sit under him as the Pastor of a church.

Pastors/elders and to a lesser degree deacons, must be beyond repute. This is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned.

The rules of ordinary forgiveness (seventy times seven) do not come into play.

If God holds us to a higher standard, why should, or how can we do any less?

How can you take serious a Pastor who is preaching a sermon against adultry when he himself is practicing the same thing he is preaching against?

Or the Pastor preaching the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah all the while lusting after men?

Can you say "hypocrite"!

No sir, they must be "blameless" and "have a good report".

There isn't much "grey area" as far as scriptures and I am concerned.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mont974x4]

DD, I would agree with you. Leaders are held to a higher standard and a pattern of behavior that shows a lack of repentance cannot be ignored. My concern is, in this thread anyways, the unbiblical and condemning treatment of leaders who have fallen but have since shown the fruit in keeping with repentance.

What basis do you have for negating the 70x7 principle? I don't see Christ teaching an exception clause.

 

[DeaconDean]

What basis do you have for negating the 70x7 principle? I don't see Christ teaching an exception clause.

The seventy times seven phrase was used when Jimmy Swaggert admitted, rather, got caught in the third trist with the prostitute. The members of the congregation cited that as an excuse for leaving him in the pulpit.

In interviews with the prostitute, she admitted to more affairs with Swaggert than he admitted to.

Of course, it could have been a scheme to smir him, but I personally doubt it. I mean, even though he is a man just like you and I, just because he is a pastor does that negate the same "sexual" urges we all share?

No.

Its just that in many, many instances, that particular (70x7) passage, it is used by people as an excuse.

Just recently, here not 5 miles from where I live, a pastor at the King James Baptist church was convicted of "gropping" 5 separate women while they were at the church seeking food and clothing.

In a sense, aren't we all children of God. And it seems to me that I remember reading:

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." -Mt 18:6 (KJV)

I take the words "little ones" not only to mean children, but the entire body of believers. For we are a "child of the King" a "child of God".

I cannot in my darkest imagination understand what God has in store for those who commit such acts as these.

Half of the church would not believe it and raised bail money to get him out of jail. Half of the church pulled out.

And now that he has been convicted, and has to register as a "sexual predator" (by North Carolina Law), the remaining church members still want him to stay on as their Pastor.

I'm sorry, but I could not in good consciousness, stay at that church with him as Pastor.

As you know, Pastors are also councilors. What happens behind closed doors while counciling goes on?

That would be a big concern on mine.

Show me true repentance first, and I'll change my opinion, otherwise, history may repeat itself.

No sir, I have very little tolerance for those individuals who are leaders of the flock who fall into grevious sins.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[lighthouse_hope]

Perhaps there are more at stake here than simply to forgive somebody. Perhaps we have to consider what example that elder is giving to the people and our children, for example.

 

[DeaconDean]

Perhaps there are more at stake here than simply to forgive somebody. Perhaps we have to consider what example that elder is giving to the people and our children, for example.

I agree.

If the church turns a blind eye to what is going on, what are we teaching the young ones in the church.

Years and years ago, churches use to practice what was once called "churching" a person.

If a church member was for example caught in adultry, they were forbidden to attend services. They made them kneel outside the church during services and pray. They could not enter the church, but they could hear the service from outside. After a year of kneeling and praying, the church would slowly acclamate them back into the church. They could attend, but not as a member. Then sometime later, after they had proved themselves, they would be admitted as members again with all the privledges therof.

This does not happen anymore.

Why?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mont974x4]

Please try to focus in here. I am al for accountability, and I am sure DD has read enough of my posts to know I draw some hard lines on issues according to Scripture.

My concern in this thread is for those who show true repentance.

 

[DeaconDean]

Please try to focus in here. I am al for accountability, and I am sure DD has read enough of my posts to know I draw some hard lines on issues according to Scripture.

My concern in this thread is for those who show true repentance.

I know you brother, and I know what you mean also.

That is why I included this:

Years and years ago, churches use to practice what was once called "churching" a person.

If a church member was for example caught in adultry, they were forbidden to attend services. They made them kneel outside the church during services and pray. They could not enter the church, but they could hear the service from outside. After a year of kneeling and praying, the church would slowly acclamate them back into the church. They could attend, but not as a member. Then sometime later, after they had proved themselves, they would be admitted as members again with all the privledges thereof.

If a pastor shows true repentance, I still would not rush to put them back in the pulpit.

Let them preach or teach once or twice a month on Wednesdays, observe their life for a season, and then we'll think about seriously.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mont974x4]

that's not unreasonable

 

[boswd]

since this post I do believe is a spinoff of the Ted Haggard thread, and which wait for it, I agree with you after thinking it through and reading your posts.

but the question in hand of Ted Haggard would be do we believe he was a homosexual for a day or he is a Homosexual and where does that fall into place in terms of his right to lead a Church.
Which then leads into do you people are making a choice to be gay or are they born with this infliction ie too much testasterone or too much estrogen.

So I guess what I'm asking is Ted Haggard still gay or did just act a little funky for a day. a

 

[mont974x4]

I don't know. I am not in a position to judge Haggard and I do not want to be drawn into a gay issues debate. I believe it is sin, and that is enough for this thread.

 

[boswd]

I don't know. I am not in a position to judge Haggard and I do not want to be drawn into a gay issues debate. I believe it is sin, and that is enough for this thread.

I know I wasn't trying to make this into a debate about Homosexuality just on Haggard in general since that was what he did and his ability to lead a Congragation again.

I with you about we have to be able forgive if they repent.

 

[mont974x4]

I am not opposed to a careful process to ensure the repentanc eis true. I believe the goal of any church discipline, no matter what the sin or who the sinner happens to be, is true repentanc eand complete restoration.