"ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] votes to allow gay pastors"

[Washington]

In 100 years, Christians will be saying that the Bible never supported homosexual discrimination, and that those Christians who believed that were mistaken and ignorant of the proper way of interpreting the bible. We've seen it with slavery and women's suffrage, and we'll see it again here.

Exactly!

Simply consider the Bible's attitude toward slavery--as you mentioned--which good Christians now conveniently ignore:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

​

Obviously slavery is something the Bible still recognizes as a defendable and appropriate condition, but has "unfortunately" now fallen on hard times, making it passé and not at all P. C.. So no one is going around championing slavery any more, but looking for issues in which to expend their energies some good Christians have chosen the homosexual to pick on. "Hey never mind what the Bible says about slavery, look what it says about homosexuals." In order to make the Christian life work smoothly picking-and-choosing Biblical positions on various issues is almost obligatory if not mandatory. Not that I blame these Christian for doing so--the Bible is one set of dastardly difficult rules to follow-- but I do wish they would recognize the double standard they've chosen to employ and reconsider their attitude toward homosexuality. If you're going to wave the banner for one of its positions you should be doing it for all its positions, and not hiding some of them in the cellar. If you're going to condemn homosexulas for what they do then let's also see you promote slavery.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Oh, but thats not slavery, thats only about owning people who WANT to be slaves, and Biblical slaves were all loved and treated kindly and it was for their own benefit really and it was all cuddles and kisses and nothing like what we mean when we say "slavery" today. [/standard fingers in ears tapdance]

There's probably something about the illuminati too.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Care to cite your source for this?

For starters:

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=1651&contentID=95806&shortcutID=31623

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Statement of Rev. Matthew Harrison on ELCA’s Task Force on Sexuality Study

Synods as in constituent parts of ELCA, WELS, etc., or as in individual Lutheran denominations (LCMS, WELS, etc.)??

The individual synods. ELCA, ELS, LCMS and WELS are synods underneath the Lutheran moniker. ELCA is the most liberal of the synods.

And you read fluent ancient Greek and Hebrew do you? Not to mention have access to the original texts?

Well, my husband reads and speaks Greek and Hebrew, but it never makes a difference to those arguing that homosexuality is a sin. The ELCA itself made a declaration that the bible needed to change with the times. At least they're honest that they're going against scriptures and don't try to hide behind some "love everyone" mantra in order to excuse their sin.

 

[Polycarp1]

The individual synods. ELCA, ELS, LCMS and WELS are synods underneath the Lutheran moniker. ELCA is the most liberal of the synods.

Thanks. (As you no doubt know but most CF members won't, "synod" is used in to distinct senses -- the regional breakdown of a larger national church (e.g., Indiana's ELCA-member churches comprise the Synod of Indiana), or the denomination name (Missouri or Wisconsin Synod Lutherans belong to churches bearing those names, even if they live in California or Massachusetts). I'd asled to clarify if you meant that you were aware that synods (=other Lutheran denominations) or synods (=regional breakdowns of ELCA) were distancing themselves friom the ELCA national body's decision -- clearly you meant the former usage in saying that. I apprecate the clarification.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Thanks. (As you no doubt know but most CF members won't, "synod" is used in to distinct senses -- the regional breakdown of a larger national church (e.g., Indiana's ELCA-member churches comprise the Synod of Indiana), or the denomination name (Missouri or Wisconsin Synod Lutherans belong to churches bearing those names, even if they live in California or Massachusetts). I'd asled to clarify if you meant that you were aware that synods (=other Lutheran denominations) or synods (=regional breakdowns of ELCA) were distancing themselves friom the ELCA national body's decision -- clearly you meant the former usage in saying that. I apprecate the clarification.

Polycarp, I didn't realize ELCA referred to their individual areas that way. For instance, in the WELS, we have "districts". I am currently in the Minnesota district, but I grew up in the Michigan district. So...if I was in the ELCA, I assume I'd be considered the Synod of Minnesota? (Just making sure I have this right!)

There ARE conservatives within the ELCA who are distancing themselves from this ruling as well.

http://www.wordalone.org/nr/God-will-not-be-mocked.shtml

 

[ziggy29]

There ARE conservatives within the ELCA who are distancing themselves from this ruling as well.

Particularly in rural areas, I can promise you that this was a very unpopular decision. There were already some ELCA congregations moving to LCMC before this began -- a couple within an hour's drive of us have done so in recent years -- and I'd expect to see more of them start looking into the process now. This was a ruling by, for, and of the urban congregations for the most part.

 

[Followers4christ]

Loving our neighbours as we would love ourselves is moving away from the Bible? What Bible are YOU reading?

Jesus never preached the gospel of radical acceptace of sin. When Jesus preached he said "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19) , "But Jesus told him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22). Jesus said to Matthew " Follow Me" he told him, And Matthew Got up and followed him." (Matthew 9:9) Matthew at the time was a tax collector but he left all that and followed Jesus.

Jesus is looking for followers who will not compromise nor allow sinful desires to control them. According to the bible Homosexuality is sinful and leads to death. Those who preach the radical acceptace of this sin are not preaching the gospel of Christ, but are twisting it to fit their lustful lifestyle.
　
Here are some scriptures that talk about this sin:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Washington]

For starters:

A message from WELS President Rev. Mark Schroeder - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Statement of Rev. Matthew Harrison on ELCA’s Task Force on Sexuality Study

Most of the Lutheran synods are distancing themselves from this ruling.
For starters:
[linked remarks]
Mark Schroeder, president of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod only expresses his regrets.

“The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, along with The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and other smaller Lutheran synods, maintains and upholds the clear teaching of the Bible that homosexuality is not in keeping with God’s design and is sinful in God’s eyes.”

Not to get pendantic here, but considering the number of different synods in North America alone--listed below--at this point in time I doubt one could rightfully claim that "most are distancing themselves from this ruling." Of course you may be absolutely correct in what you say, but I think your claim is premature.


AALC - American Association of Lutheran Churches
ACLC - Association of Confessional Lutheran Churches
ALCA - Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
AFLC - Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
ALCC - Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
ARC - Alliance of Renewal Churches (charismatic/pentecostal)
CALC - Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations
CLA- Conservative Lutheran Association
CLBA - Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
CLC - Church of the Lutheran Confession
CLC - Concordia Lutheran Conference
Eielsen Synod - Eielsen Synod
ELCA - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
ELCIC - Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
ELCM - Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America
ELDoNA - Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America
ELF - Evangelical Lutheran Federation
ELS - Evangelical Lutheran Synod
EELK -Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
GCEPC-The Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church
ILC - Illinois Lutheran Conference
ILF - International Lutheran Fellowship
LLC - Laestadian Lutheran Church
LELCA - Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
LCC - Lutheran Church - Canada
LCCF - Lutheran Conference of Confessional Fellowship
LCMC - Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ
LCMS - The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
LMS-USA - The Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
LCR - Lutheran Churches of the Reformation
LCS - The Lutheran Confessional Synod
OLCC - Orthodox Lutheran Confessional Conference
Protestant Conference - Protes'tant Conference
ULMA - United Lutheran Mission Association
WELS - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
WCLA - World Confessional Lutheran Association

source: Wikipedia

 

[PreachersWife2004]

If I didn't have a life, Washington, I'd actually go and find all the statements out there from each synod that talks about the disappointment in the ruling. In terms of the main American synods, most are distancing themselves. I can tell you that with LCMS and WELS distancing themselves, ELS and CLC will definitely be doing the same.

I trust that my claim is not premature. Any confessional Lutheran church listed there will certainly distance themselves, as LCMS and WELS have already done.

 

[Polycarp1]

Jesus never preached the gospel of radical acceptace of sin. When Jesus preached he said "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19) , "But Jesus told him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead" (Matthew 8:22). Jesus said to Matthew " Follow Me" he told him, And Matthew Got up and followed him." (Matthew 9:9) Matthew at the time was a tax collector but he left all that and followed Jesus.

Jesus is looking for followers who will not compromise nor allow sinful desires to control them. According to the bible Homosexuality is sinful and leads to death. Those who preach the radical acceptace of this sin are not preaching the gospel of Christ, but are twisting it to fit their lustful lifestyle.
　
Here are some scriptures that talk about this sin:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

This is N&CE. There are extensive arguments that have been going on for a long time about the meaning of those and other passages, and their applicability to gay people in specific situations. And they are conducted in the forums that CF rules set aside for such discussions: E&M and CP&M. I encourage you to bring this discussion over there, and I'd be pleased to respond to them in the proepr forums.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Look at what Rev. Anne said
just above your post, and tell me whether you are doing
something that God condemns right in that very post. (Do not
hear this as a flame or condemnation, but as a challenge to
be merciful even as our Father is merciful, to call in love
and forgive as He does.

I could care less if a gay
person becomes a gay pastor,I just stating what the bible
says for fact.I just can't see how a practicing gay preacher can
honestly preach from the bible and tell people Gods
message,how not to sin when he's knowingly sinning and not
stopping.Do I care he's sinning,nope.Also somewhere I read in
the bible,When leaders are sinning,Your supposed to bring to attention to stop the sin,Not for the person to continue sinning.

And you read fluent ancient Greek and Hebrew do you? Not to mention have access to the original texts?

You would have a point if it said nothing agaist homosexaul behaver and if they don't use a bible that doesn't say God isn't pleased with homosexaul behavior,But most bibles I read Says God thing homosexaul behavior is an evil act,So I for this reason alown I cant see why someone would be living such a life style,That the bible(which is Gods word) says is wrong.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

A good comparison would be if a church found out its pastor was openly involved in an affair, and that it was an ongoing affair. Now, we know most churches would work with the pastor, move him towards repentance, but he would more than likely be ousted from the pulpit. If he repented and changed his ways, he could probably look into getting back into the ministry...but it would be a very uphill battle.

At the very least, what ELCA has done is said that it's okay to be living a sinful lifestyle and still be in the pulpit. The ELCA has said "you don't have to be married legally to have sex..." So I assume then that the ELCA will have no problems with heterosexual pastors engaging in sex even though they're not married.

 

[Washington]

A good comparison would be if a church found out its pastor was openly involved in an affair, and that it was an ongoing affair. Now, we know most churches would work with the pastor, move him towards repentance, but he would more than likely be ousted from the pulpit. If he repented and changed his ways, he could probably look into getting back into the ministry...but it would be a very uphill battle.

At the very least, what ELCA has done is said that it's okay to be living a sinful lifestyle and still be in the pulpit. The ELCA has said "you don't have to be married legally to have sex..." So I assume then that the ELCA will have no problems with heterosexual pastors engaging in sex even though they're not married.

Let's hope not.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Let's hope not.

For all intents and purposes, it is the same thing.

 

[ziggy29]

A good comparison would be if a church found out its pastor was openly involved in an affair, and that it was an ongoing affair. Now, we know most churches would work with the pastor, move him towards repentance, but he would more than likely be ousted from the pulpit. If he repented and changed his ways, he could probably look into getting back into the ministry...but it would be a very uphill battle.

This is, to me, a much better example than a one-time divorce (as some people use). Someone who repeatedly and unrepentantly continued to engage in extramarital sex and intended to keep doing so -- would not be a pastor for long, or at least shouldn't be. That's the trouble here -- the church should act just the same for someone who refuses to stop cheating on his wife as for someone who keeps engaging in homosexual activity. Both are similar as sins in the eyes of God and both would be behavior that would be unacceptable for the clergy if it were an ongoing behavior which they had no intention of stopping and for which they were unrepentant.

Another example would be a single pastor having heterosexual relations -- even in a monogamous relationship -- without marrying his partner. These are essentially the same situation in terms of suitability for the pulpit.

Someone who is divorced but repented and accepted is no different than someone who once "experimented" with homosexual sex at one point, but repented and gave it up for good.

 

[Washington]

For all intents and purposes, it is the same thing.

But not if homosexuals can legally marry. So . . . . . .

 

[ziggy29]

But not if homosexuals can legally marry. So . . . . . .

That is a matter for the state to address. Not the church.

 

[Washington]

That is a matter for the state to address. Not the church.

So what? Is the church not going to recognize the legal marriage of homosexuals? In any case, the particular issue here with PreachersWife2004 assumed as much.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So what? Is the church not going to recognize the legal marriage of homosexuals? In any case, the particular issue here with PreachersWife2004 assumed as much.

I believe that the ELCA churches would recognize them. I think some ELCA churches already performs same-sex marriages. But the ruling doesn't specify that they must be married, which is why I said they shouldn't then have a problem with unmarried heterosexual pastors (or even laypeople then for that matter) having sex because they're in a committed relationship.

My church wouldn't recognize a legal gay marriage, because we put God's law before man's law.

 

[oldbetang]

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

James 5:20: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.