Either way, Trinity is Pagan.

[Oblio]

Might I add Oblio, that the avatar you are using has pagan symbols in it as well

You can add it, but like your OP, it would be wrong.

 

[Perceivence]

Jehovahs Witnesses ARE Christians. a Christian is defined as anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, JW are Christian. Just like Mormons are Christian. In fact, there are so many different types of Christians out there... IVE LOST COUNT.

I'm sure you're aware that that is not the definition of a Christian that the Christians who say "Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians" use.

My point is that the pagan doctorine of the Trinity is EXACTLY like that of the Christian Trinity. Christians are taught to shun pagan beliefs, so why do they accept a pagan practice?

So Ra only has three forms? No more? No less?

Were those forms revealed over a period of time, too? Did one of them come down to the Earth and spent some time here, too? Is the other one currently with all believers of Ra? Are they all inter-dependent and inter-related, or are they just seemingly random forms of the same god?

 

[PaladinValer]

Wrong. Ra was believed to be all at once. He kept the Waters of Chaos calm so that life could flourish in the world, he sat at the head of the council of the gods, and he pushed the sun across the sky ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

Not entirely correct. The first you list happened first...it was the past before the other two even occurred. In addition, I believe like in Hellenic theology, Ra had a replacement when he was busy with other things just like Apollo did with Helios.

In either case, that isn't how the Trinity in Christianity works anyhow. Since it would answer your next question, I'll do it there.

I restate my question; how is the pagan trinity of Ra different from the Christian trinity?

Ra's various names were actually due to the Kemeic (Egyptian) belief of the "syncretic god." Two gods in Kemeic theology often "merged" to form one god. However, this is completely unlike the Christian understanding of the Trinity. I suggest you read the Creed of St. Athanasius to see how orthodox Christians view the Trinity; you'll see that it is different because there isn't a syncreticism between two or more gods; God is Three Persons in One, not thee different gods.

In addition, to see what orthodox Christianity is, I suggest you read about the Ecumenical Councils, which were established to declare what is Christianity and what was heresy.

 

[Drynwhyl]

Just because they don't believe in a pagan trinity doesn't mean they aren't christian.

 

[Drynwhyl]

Two gods in Kemeic theology often "merged" to form one god

Kinda like Jesus and the Jewish God, right?

 

[Perceivence]

Just because they don't believe in a pagan trinity doesn't mean they aren't christian.

You're looking for a fire, aren't you?

 

[Drynwhyl]

You're looking for a fire, aren't you?

Well if you want to think that then go right ahead.

 

[Ceph]

We should look into Jesus, who is 1 of the three in the xian trinity. It is a fact that Jesus was stolen from ancient mythology. I believe stolen is the right word, because as you say "God is three persons in one, not three gods"
We'll have to look into Horus the child, to prove my claim right.

Osiris, Isis, Horus - that's a trinity of three gods

Isis impregnated herself with her dead husband's (Osiris) sperm; there was no physical male present so it was perceived as a virgin birth.
Horus was born on the 25th of December
- just like Jesus
In the city of Annu commonly called "The place of bread"
- Bethlehem means "The house of bread"
Horus was baptized
- just like Jesus

Woops! When did the three gods become one? If I may answer, NEVER.
I believe this proves my claim.

Though of course there's more about Jesus.. how about we also look into Mithra. I'd post a proper link but I don't have enough posts, so go on to google and search for Mithra.
[size=-1][/size]
Don't know about you, but to me it looks like Horus -> Mithra -> Jesus .

STOLEN!

 

[PaladinValer]

Kinda like Jesus and the Jewish God, right?

Nope. God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There is no syncreticism. Read the Creed of St. Athanasius.

 

[PaladinValer]

We should look into Jesus, who is 1 of the three in the xian trinity. It is a fact that Jesus was stolen from ancient mythology. I believe stolen is the right word, because as you say "God is three persons in one, not three gods"

If you were to read the Creed of St. Athanasius, you'd see that I am correct.

As for you example, I will give you some some facts about Kemetic religion:

1. Isis, Horus, and Osiris never merge into one.
2. Even if they did, that is three gods, not Three Persons.
3. I'd like to see some primary sources where it says Horus was born on December 25th (and mind you, orthodox Christianity never stated Jesus was born on that day, only that the feast of His birth be celebrated then), that Horus's life (and I know the story of his infancy) is connected to that city directly, and that Horus was baptized. Remember, they have to be primary sources.

Good luck, because they don't exist.

Woops! When did the three gods become one? If I may answer, NEVER. I believe this proves my claim.

It proves nothing, and here's the proof to show you how it doesn't:

Let E symbolize Egyptian Trinity
Let C symbolize Christian Trinity

Your argument is this:

E -> C
~E
-----
therefore, ~C

This is illogical. You are attempting to perform the rule of modus tolens, but that isn't how its done. This would be the proper form, but since it doesn't equate to your premises or conclusion, it proves that your argument is invalid:

E -> C
~C
------
therefore, ~E <-----this is a valid modus tolens

In addition, I know of Mithra as well and of the history of the deity. The actual religion of Mithraism is actually a heretical form of Zoroastrianism and heretical ancient Persian Paganism, to which Mithra was originally a deva. You have no argument from here either.

The Christianity Trinity remains to be unique.

 

[Zirkon]

We cannot fully grasp the concept of what the Trinity really is. The relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as ONE is well beyond our comprehension. I believe he has dumbed it down for us humans.

 

[PaladinValer]

The official, orthodox, valid Christian view of the Trinity can be found in the words of the Creed of St. Athanasius. However, you are correct Zirkon in that it is still a Mystery of our faith.

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Here's a difference: The Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) is real. Horus and the Egyptian God's are NOT. That's a pretty big difference.

Of course, non-christians are not going to see this difference.

Also, there is the fact that the Egyptians were polytheistic and Christianity is monotheistic. Horus is only a "god" of one or a few things. God (F,S+HS) is God of everything.

Also, Mary was not impregnated by her husband's sperm like Horus. Mary conceived THROUGH the Holy Spirit, not by the Holy Spirit's sperm or Josephs sperm.

Those are the differences I can think of based on what I have read and without any further research.

 

[Papist]

Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt and all that.

Yes, Christianity has, from the start, absorbed pagan concepts into itself, quite openly. It's no secret -- just that not many people know about it.

Early Christians proselytised Pagans using Pagan terminology, and incorporated this thinking into its theology, so that Pagans could understand the theology, during the period of the 'apologists' on the second and third centuries.

Nothing new and not in the least bit shocking.

 

[Papist]

You can add it, but like your OP, it would be wrong.

I have to say, Oblio, he's right. Old, pagan stuff was 'baptised' during the time of Constantine. You just can't clear out a whole culture just like that -- all you can do is absorb it and subsume it.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Here's a difference: The Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) is real. Horus and the Egyptian God's are NOT. That's a pretty big difference.

And this you know how?

Of course, non-christians are not going to see this difference.

No, because they don&#8217;t have the Holy Spirit.

Also, Mary was not impregnated by her husband's sperm like Horus. Mary conceived THROUGH the Holy Spirit, not by the Holy Spirit's sperm or Josephs sperm.

This reminds me of editing one&#8217;s post to remove incriminating references. The story of Jesus&#8217; conception was edited by Christians to remove all pagan references, such as the notion that Yahweh had actual sex with Mary. Very convenient.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

We (orthodox Jews) categorically reject the notion of a triune God as conceptually and semantically ill-disguised tritheism. Our great 9th century CE sage, Saadya Gaon (who lived in what is now Iraq, see http://tinyurl.com/3yjtd) said that to believe that God is triune is to define & limit Him by the physical concepts of quantity and number. To believe in a truly transcendant God (that is who transcends all physical constructs/concepts, including those of quantity & number), who is Wholly Other, one must believe that He is One. Since He created all things corporeal, He Himself cannot be, or have been at one time, corporeal; to believe otherwise, Saadya Gaon taught, is to define Him by, & limit Him to, the corporeal form that he presumably chose. I have heard many Christians use the analogy that the three "persons" of the trinity are all one the same way that I, ferinstance, am a father to my boys, a husband to my wife, a son to my parents & a brother to my brother. I would reply that this is a human analogy & as such, it cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The same goes for the ice-water-steam analogy. H20 is a created, physical, corporeal thing & as such, cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The uniqueness of One is that it presumes no self-division. Like the smallest whole number that it, in fact, is, it cannot be broken down into constituent parts. Whereas 3 = 1 + 1+ 1, 1 (simply) = 1; it is in this sense that 1 is transcendant in a way that 3 is not. We believe that the Oneness of God is unbounded both internally & externally.

My personal view is that the early Christians found the (originally) Jewish concept of a transcendant, wholly other God too difficult to grasp and recast Him in our image, i.e. they made Him flesh & gave Him our form and made Him much easier to relate to. It seems to me that this is paganism with a (superficial) non-pagan veneer. (I mean no offense to anyone, God forbid!)

Be well!

ssv

 

[Heathen Dawn]

My personal view is that the early Christians found the (originally) Jewish concept of a transcendant, wholly other God too difficult to grasp and recast Him in our image, i.e. they made Him flesh & gave Him our form and made Him much easier to relate to.

But note, it took some time till the Hebrew God evolved from a human-form person into an abstract, noncorporeal Spirit. The earlier parts of the Tanakh have Him walking in the garden and depict Him as having body parts. If you want a really non-anthropomorphic concept of deity, the Qur&#8217;an does the job much better&#8212;Allah is depicted as totally abstract, and He is also less personal than the God of the Bible, sometimes even bordering on Deism. The more you philosophise about Deity, the more abstract and impersonal Deity becomes, until you end up with Deism or pantheism, and from that to atheism the way is short. I therefore find the pagan concept of Deity, which is the most anthropomorphic and personal, to be the most conservative and fully theistic.

 

[Papist]

The Trinity is an expression of the three-fold experience of the one God. God is experienced as the wholly-other transcendent Father, as 'God with us' in the Son, and as the indwelling, immanent God the Holy Spirit.

As I understand it, Judaism does not experience God as totally transcendent but has a belief in the 'presence of God' with us -- the immanent ruach of God.

By borrowing Pagan ideas to express our experience of God, we do not make ourselves Pagan, although perhaps Pagans are more able to understand, intuitively, our understanding of the triune nature of God.

I wonder how Christian theology would have developed had Paul not taken the Gospel to the Gentiles?

 

[Perceivence]

Don't Muslims believe that the Word of God is eternal or a part of Him or something?