Eighth Commandment Hypocrisy

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Luther tells us that the eighth command, "Thou shalt not bear false witness," teaches us not only to not lie under oath, but to put the best possible construction on the words and deeds of others, interpreting everything in the kindest possible way.

I don't want to debate whether or not that interpretation has anything whatsoever to do with the actual commandment as it appears in the Bible (I have my own strong opinions on that matter). Lets just take it that it's a good rule regardless, and CF would be a much nicer place if we all lived by it.

Now, that said:

Does anybody ever feel like many of the people who bring it up often tend bring it up in order to point out that you, not they, have not followed it?

Does anybody ever feel like it gets brought up more often in order to end a discussion rather than promote mutual understanding?

Does anybody ever feel like the people who most often bring it up sometimes tend to be the same people who are the worst at assuming the best about the words of others?

Okay, we're all sinners, the law always condemns, I get that.

But there's just something about this one that irritates me; not the law itself, but the way in which it gets used and abused.

n.b. I posted this in GT but I expect we'll get very different sorts of discussions in here.

 

[Moses Medina]

I cant remember if you are LCMS or not but theres a similar situation currently that's been blown out of proportion but that I hope in love gets settled. I definitely feel that it gets abused though.

 

[MNKeith]

dario68w, you must be referring to the letter of the 32.

I am guilty of using the 8th commandment to help suppress a serious matter that could have really blown out of proportion. Accusations were flying around and I did not want it to get out of hand before serious damage was done for all parties involved.

Unfortunately, the church party line is the fastest in the world.

In my particular case, I would do it again as it did help protect the individuals involved.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I am LCMS, yes, but I'm not referring to any particular incident. I'm not familiar with whatever it is you're referring to.

 

[Moses Medina]

I figured you weren't, but I was referencing the letter of the 32 as MN said.

 

[LilLamb219]

I haven't seen it brought up in a long time. Unless I'm ignoring it??? yikes

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think the biggest thing you can do to avoid breaking the 8th commandment is to follow Matthew 18, at least in terms of issues within or around the church.

With this letter of 32, it would appear as none of those guys deemed it necessary to talk to Pastor Wilken at all before writing of his grievous sin(s). Seems like that should've been the first step, and I think the title of his blog post about it sums it up nicely: That escalated quickly.

On a more general note, I happen to think that the 8th commandment is the hardest one to keep.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Now, that said:

Does anybody ever feel like many of the people who bring it up often tend bring it up in order to point out that you, not they, have not followed it?

Does anybody ever feel like it gets brought up more often in order to end a discussion rather than promote mutual understanding?

Does anybody ever feel like the people who most often bring it up sometimes tend to be the same people who are the worst at assuming the best about the words of others?

Okay, we're all sinners, the law always condemns, I get that.

But there's just something about this one that irritates me; not the law itself, but the way in which it gets used and abused.

n.b. I posted this in GT but I expect we'll get very different sorts of discussions in here.

Oops.

Hi, my name is Kalevalatar and I'm one of those CF posters whose major pet peeve is other posters who spread internet/e-mail memes, urban legends, conspiracy theories and generally unsubstantiated mass media/internet stories and political propaganda. Yes, I know: I can be pretty annoying, just ask my DH. And a few times, I have evoked the Command not to bear false witness.

Yet, as mindful as I am of the criticality and media savviness when it comes to the mass media and political rhetoric, still, possibly my biggest personal stumbling block is gossip. I can't resist workplace coffee table gossip, including the seriously slanderous ones. Plus, I'm pretty manipulative, and good at it, too, meaning I don't just gossip. I ab/use that gossip to my own advantage, or so I hope even when I know I'm harming myself. Daily, I ask forgiveness for engaging in gossip that actually may do some real harm and I ask for strenght to stay away from it, yet just about every other day, I fall and find myself doing it again.

I try to tell myself it's "just" gossip, and I keep the other Commandments, and still, I know it is bearing a false witness. It just may be as bad as, you know, killing someone of hurting your neighbour physically.

Matthew 15:
"Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. "Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them."

And while I'm aware I'm probably far from alone in being guilty of this, that knowledge, still, doesn't help, at all, does it? Because it's a very personal guilt.

So yes, to every single one of your "?" postulations here.

Yet I still do think that posters who put forth silly "gossip"-like unsubstantiated/claims/memes/plain old propaganda should be called out for it, and I certainly will continue to do that, for the reason alone that if you have access to internet in order to post your slanderous yet unsubstantiated points, you also have the same access to verify and backup your claims. If a posters chooses to post the gossip but not to verify the source, then shame on the poster, and my personal failings as a habitual gossiper -- very much a Finnish backwoods trait, still -- do not figure in the equation.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Oops.

Hi, my name is Kalevalatar and I'm one of those CF posters whose major pet peeve is other posters who spread internet/e-mail memes, urban legends, conspiracy theories and generally unsubstantiated mass media/internet stories and political propaganda. Yes, I know: I can be pretty annoying, just ask my DH. And a few times, I have evoked the Command not to bear false witness.

Yet, as mindful as I am of the criticality and media savviness when it comes to the mass media and political rhetoric, still, possibly my biggest personal stumbling block is gossip. I can't resist workplace coffee table gossip, including the seriously slanderous ones. Plus, I'm pretty manipulative, and good at it, too, meaning I don't just gossip. I ab/use that gossip to my own advantage, or so I hope even when I know I'm harming myself. Daily, I ask forgiveness for engaging in gossip that actually may do some real harm and I ask for strenght to stay away from it, yet just about every other day, I fall and find myself doing it again.

I try to tell myself it's "just" gossip, and I keep the other Commandments, and still, I know it is bearing a false witness. It just may be as bad as, you know, killing someone of hurting your neighbour physically.

Matthew 15:
"Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. "Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them."

And while I'm aware I'm probably far from alone in being guilty of this, that knowledge, still, doesn't help, at all, does it? Because it's a very personal guilt.

So yes, to every single one of your "?" postulations here.

Yet I still do think that posters who put forth silly "gossip"-like unsubstantiated/claims/memes/plain old propaganda should be called out for it, and I certainly will continue to do that, for the reason alone that if you have access to internet in order to post your slanderous yet unsubstantiated points, you also have the same access to verify and backup your claims. If a posters chooses to post the gossip but not to verify the source, then shame on the poster, and my personal failings as a habitual gossiper -- very much a Finnish backwoods trait, still -- do not figure in the equation.

Well I can certainly appreciate invoking the command on others when they're spreading counterknowledge. I'm known to do that myself.

And, of course, we should always try to apply it to ourselves.

What really annoys me is when there is a genuine theological debate, or a concern over church practice, and we're told to obey the eighth commandment because surely they believe a, b, and c, or practice x, y, and z, for the best of reasons. I'm reminded of debates over whether churches should, not necessarily but ideally, have bishops; or over whether communion should be weekly or even daily; or whether infants ought to be communion. If any suspicion is aired that the opposing party has reasons other than the highest theological reasons (they're just suspicious of bishops and are used to more democratic polity because they're American/western; they don't want church to go that long because they want to make it home to watch the game; they've never even seriously considering the opposing viewpoint even if they have really good reasons for their own), then that must be assuming the worst, as though we had to assume all people everywhere always acted on the basis of idealistic motives.

 

[FireDragon76]

Roman Catholics have a similar understanding of the 8th Commandment.

I think your last example is just using the commandment to be anti-intellectual, in which case it's not a sin to call something like you see it.

I have to agree that the 8th commandment is probably the hardest to keep. Ironic since most American Christians only seem obsessed with sexuality. American culture treats slander and idle speech very lightly.

 

[Edial]

...

Does anybody ever feel like many of the people who bring it up often tend bring it up in order to point out that you, not they, have not followed it?

Does anybody ever feel like it gets brought up more often in order to end a discussion rather than promote mutual understanding?

Does anybody ever feel like the people who most often bring it up sometimes tend to be the same people who are the worst at assuming the best about the words of others?

Okay, we're all sinners, the law always condemns, I get that.

But there's just something about this one that irritates me; not the law itself, but the way in which it gets used and abused.

...

The reason it is brought up in a slanderous way is in order to win the audience.

The most effective comeback, in my opinion, is to quote this verse ...

MT 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Then, the audience would weigh the situation.

 

[Edouard]

Their are wolves among the sheep.
never forget.

what does it mean to discipline in the Bible: more times than we realize it remembers to encourage a person to be restored to God. If they refuse to repent then the Elders/Deacons approach them - still refuse: the issue is to be brought forward before the church so they are aware. Does not mean we excommunicate them - it lets people know those who were in a leadership role have refused to repent and therefore have lost their footing in the church. Revelations 1-3 talks about this in great detail.

So i think they issue is not so much False witness and how we communicate: more of how we teach: books of James listen before you speak.

One way to disseminate a conversation that may turn this way is only to respond with love unless a person is completely wrong then God encourages us to discipline that person out of love according to scripture: this is where the Church is viewed as being Judgemental.


As in the Epistles May grace and peace be with you all.