ecumenism

[choirfiend]

Yes. Practice Orthodoxy in the GOC. Truth will not be found in beard length or cloth on the head, but in Christ's Body, which is the Orthodox Church, including greeks.

The Amish (or the heretical/schismatic groups that claim "true" Orthodoxy) are wonderful for caring about beard length and cloth. Very precise and conforming in their beliefs! They might be the best place to investigate 'true" things that don't have to do with the Holyy Trinity or the Incarnation and Resurrection.

 

[27B6]

...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed, and the canons, particularly when it comes to a bishop "rightly dividing the truth" are interpreted and applied BY THE PRIEST's BISHOP. That's canonical too, you know.

Blanket citing of the canons is uncanonical and quite unorthodox too. And I think directly implying that Antiochian bishops DO NOT TAKE THE CANONS SERIOUSLY is, well, extremely offensive. Who are you to say such things? You do realize that you just condemned righteous priests and bishops, don't you? Indeed, one could interpret your comment as demeaning entire jurisdictions.

One more word. My bishop, Joseph, who I think most know was RAISED AS A CHILD IN A MONASTERY and is a man of integrity, has stated that one thing he appreciates in American culture is the attitude of "mind your own business." He teaches that we Orthodox need to cultivate more of this attitude in our spiritual lives. I think he is right, and perhaps, Jack, this is a teaching you may wish to consider before you spout off on the canons and priest's beards.

P.S. And please forgive me, a sinner, if I have offended with my intemperate tongue. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone. But this kind of discussion over canons very often goes way too far.

that's not what he is saying. as an example jck has a ton of respect for Bishop Michael of NY, who was clean shaven when he was a priest and the Dean of STOTS. what jck is talking about is the visceral reaction people have to Elder Ephraim, coming from Elder Joseph the hesychast, how strict THEY are, should not come as a surprise.

 

[BraveMommy]

it is indeed in the canons that priests should not shave. people are shocked by these monasteries because they still take such things like the canons seriously, but if you go to confession to them then you are submitting yourself to their counsel.

One of the two priests at my parish is clean shaven, the other keeps his trimmed.

 

[BraveMommy]

Is it safe to assume we're all on the same page that the Canons, like the Bible, are inspired by the Holy Spirit and like the Bible, are to be interpreted by the Church as a whole and are not a matter for personal interpretation?

 

[searn77]

Yes. Practice Orthodoxy in the GOC. Truth will not be found in beard length or cloth on the head, but in Christ's Body, which is the Orthodox Church, including greeks.

The Amish (or the heretical/schismatic groups that claim "true" Orthodoxy) are wonderful for caring about beard length and cloth. Very precise and conforming in their beliefs! They might be the best place to investigate 'true" things that don't have to do with the Holyy Trinity or the Incarnation and Resurrection.

We don't care about beard length or cloth (unless it's synthetic cloth; that's taking it too far); just faithfully following Christ.

 

[buzuxi]

I think the last few posts are more about modernist tendencies rather than ecumenism. It may or may not be loosely connected to ecumenism. Ecumenism as its understood is indeed a heresy, the question that remains are twofold:

What are the parameters of ecumenical dialogues, whats too far?

If the parameters are crossed what should the response be to those ecumenists?

Currently the above are grey areas with different reactions.

We would need a private sub forum in TAW to discuss these controversial issues.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can't believe we're seriously debating beard length.....:o:o

 

[jckstraw72]

Indeed, and the canons, particularly when it comes to a bishop "rightly dividing the truth" are interpreted and applied BY THE PRIEST's BISHOP. That's canonical too, you know.

Blanket citing of the canons is uncanonical and quite unorthodox too. And I think directly implying that Antiochian bishops DO NOT TAKE THE CANONS SERIOUSLY is, well, extremely offensive. Who are you to say such things? You do realize that you just condemned righteous priests and bishops, don't you? Indeed, one could interpret your comment as demeaning entire jurisdictions.

One more word. My bishop, Joseph, who I think most know was RAISED AS A CHILD IN A MONASTERY and is a man of integrity, has stated that one thing he appreciates in American culture is the attitude of "mind your own business." He teaches that we Orthodox need to cultivate more of this attitude in our spiritual lives. I think he is right, and perhaps, Jack, this is a teaching you may wish to consider before you spout off on the canons and priest's beards.

P.S. And please forgive me, a sinner, if I have offended with my intemperate tongue. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone. But this kind of discussion over canons very often goes way too far.

i didn't say anything about Antiochian bishops, and I didn't have them in mind when I made my post. The only one I've met personally is Bp. Thomas and I've always been edified by what he has to say. My Antiochian priest has a closely-trimmed beard and I really don't care. you are reading way too much into what i said. i simply said that there are canons about clerical beards. I said nothing about how to apply said canons. i simply said that the monasteries take the canons seriously - and you seemed to have assumed that taking them seriously means always applying them strictly. but i didn't say that. you can read Wounded by Love for a good lesson about always applying the canons strictly.

anyways, thank you ArmyMatt, for your post

... Matt has known me personally my entire time in Orthodoxy. We've spent car rides listening to Fr. Seraphim with his glorious beard of awesomeness, and just as many car rides listening to Fr. Hopko with his neatly trimmed beard. His Word of the Cross lecture is pretty tight.

 

[jckstraw72]

One of the two priests at my parish is clean shaven, the other keeps his trimmed.

but they both still consecrate the Eucharist for you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

... Matt has known me personally my entire time in Orthodoxy. We've spent car rides listening to Fr. Seraphim with his glorious beard of awesomeness, and just as many car rides listening to Fr. Hopko with his neatly trimmed beard. His Word of the Cross lecture is pretty tight

and the bazillion and a half OCF events with Fr Gillquist

 

[GreekOrthodox]

If you really want to get into canon law then as Ricky would say, "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do"

According to the 50th canon of the Council of Carthage, clergy may not eat out unless travelling: Concerning the non-frequenting of taverns by the clergy, except when travelling. That the clergy are not to enter taverns for eating or drinking, nor unless compelled to do so by the necessity of their journey.

If your church holds a festival of any kind, you are breaking the 52nd Canon of Carthage:

Concerning the not having feasts under any circumstances in churches.
That no bishops or clerics are to hold feasts in churches, unless perchance they are forced thereto by the necessity of hospitality as they pass by. The people, too, as far as possible, are to be prohibited from attending such feasts.

Canon 63 forbids Christians from being actors (Sorry Tom Hanks, Rita Wilson, Tina Fey, Sandra Dee, and half the cast of My Big Fat Greek Wedding)
And of them also it must be sought that if anyone wishes to come to the grace of Christianity from any ludicrous art (ludicra arte) and to remain free of that stain, it be not lawful for anyone to induce him or compel him to return to the performance of the same things again.

 

[BraveMommy]

I can't believe we're seriously debating beard length.....:o:o

Someone suggested that I remain in the GOC regardless of the Ecumenism practiced by my parish priests with the permission of our Bishop - going to Catholic parish and participating in Catholic prayers which basically chanted the praises of the Pope having universal jurisdiction and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from both the Father and the Son - But that I cling to Elder Ephraim's numerous Monasteries as the will protect me from Ecumenism....I responded to that poster that their reasoning for their advise was the exact opposite as a prirst hadjust given me on another forum...his advise was to steer clear of the monasteries because he knew of a priest who went to confession and was corrected by his spiritual father, a monk, for cutting his beard as it to do sip is against the canons, the priest who told the story said that's an example of how bad monasteries are. When I posted what he said, people here went wild - most here seen to be against keeping the holy canons - idk -if the canons are to be ignored than why did the fathers go through the trouble of holding the Councils, collecting and preserving them? Has economia be given by council for individual bishops to dismiss some or all of the Holy Spirit inspired canons they don't like or think are necessary? If so, when did this council granting such permission take place? Where can I read about it. If I remain in the GOC, I need to understand that I'm not compromising holy Orthodoxy.

 

[jckstraw72]

and the bazillion and a half OCF events with Fr Gillquist

fer shizzle

 

[BraveMommy]

If you really want to get into canon law then as Ricky would say, "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do"

According to the 50th canon of the Council of Carthage, clergy may not eat out unless travelling: Concerning the non-frequenting of taverns by the clergy, except when travelling. That the clergy are not to enter taverns for eating or drinking, nor unless compelled to do so by the necessity of their journey.

If your church holds a festival of any kind, you are breaking the 52nd Canon of Carthage:

Concerning the not having feasts under any circumstances in churches.
That no bishops or clerics are to hold feasts in churches, unless perchance they are forced thereto by the necessity of hospitality as they pass by. The people, too, as far as possible, are to be prohibited from attending such feasts.

Canon 63 forbids Christians from being actors (Sorry Tom Hanks, Rita Wilson, Tina Fey, Sandra Dee, and half the cast of My Big Fat Greek Wedding)
And of them also it must be sought that if anyone wishes to come to the grace of Christianity from any ludicrous art (ludicra arte) and to remain free of that stain, it be not lawful for anyone to induce him or compel him to return to the performance of the same things again.

how do you get festival out of the word tavern? Their meanings aren't remotely close in definition. And you thing those actors you mentioned participate in"ludicrous" art? Oh boy! Look up definitions my friend and see what ludicrous actually is.

 

[jckstraw72]

Someone suggested that I remain in the GOC regardless of the Ecumenism practiced by my parish priests with the permission of our Bishop - going to Catholic parish and participating in Catholic prayers which basically chanted the praises of the Pope having universal jurisdiction and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from both the Father and the Son - But that I cling to Elder Ephraim's numerous Monasteries as the will protect me from Ecumenism....I responded to that poster that their reasoning for their advise was the exact opposite as a prirst hadjust given me on another forum...his advise was to steer clear of the monasteries because he knew of a priest who went to confession and was corrected by his spiritual father, a monk, for cutting his beard as it to do sip is against the canons, the priest who told the story said that's an example of how bad monasteries are. When I posted what he said, people here went wild - most here seen to be against keeping the holy canons - idk -if the canons are to be ignored than why did the fathers go through the trouble of holding the Councils, collecting and preserving them? Has economia be given by council for individual bishops to dismiss some or all of the Holy Spirit inspired canons they don't like or think are necessary? If so, when did this council granting such permission take place? Where can I read about it. If I remain in the GOC, I need to understand that I'm not compromising holy Orthodoxy.

BraveMommy -- you have very legitimate concerns. But I think you can take comfort in the fact that great luminaries such as Elder Paisios, Elder Porphyrios, Elder Joseph the Hesychast, Elder Cleopa, etc and our living holy fathers in America, Athos, etc have remained in communion with the GOC. You can be a light from within the GOC. I know many lights in the GOC.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

how do you get festival out of the word tavern? Their meanings aren't remotely close in definition. And you thing those actors you mentioned participate in"ludicrous" art? Oh boy! Look up definitions my friend and see what ludicrous actually is.

So quoting from the Rudder is wrong? These are individual canons from the Council of Carthage.

 

[BraveMommy]

So quoting from the Rudder is wrong? These are individual canons from the Council of Carthage.

of course not. Just as quoting from the Bible is just fine. Your misinterpretation of the word tavern found in the Rudder for the word festival is your inadequate grasp of word definitions.

 

[Kristos]

Someone suggested that I remain in the GOC regardless of the Ecumenism practiced by my parish priests with the permission of our Bishop - going to Catholic parish and participating in Catholic prayers which basically chanted the praises of the Pope having universal jurisdiction and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from both the Father and the Son - But that I cling to Elder Ephraim's numerous Monasteries as the will protect me from Ecumenism....I responded to that poster that their reasoning for their advise was the exact opposite as a prirst hadjust given me on another forum...his advise was to steer clear of the monasteries because he knew of a priest who went to confession and was corrected by his spiritual father, a monk, for cutting his beard as it to do sip is against the canons, the priest who told the story said that's an example of how bad monasteries are. When I posted what he said, people here went wild - most here seen to be against keeping the holy canons - idk -if the canons are to be ignored than why did the fathers go through the trouble of holding the Councils, collecting and preserving them? Has economia be given by council for individual bishops to dismiss some or all of the Holy Spirit inspired canons they don't like or think are necessary? If so, when did this council granting such permission take place? Where can I read about it. If I remain in the GOC, I need to understand that I'm not compromising holy Orthodoxy.

May I suggest that you worry a little less about who is following which canon? I would be willing to wager that there isn't anyone who follows them all, especially among the clergy. Any priest who was ordained before 35 is in violation (which probably covers about 80% of the priests out there). Pretty much all of the bishops in North America are in violation of canon law as their diocese overlap. I'm not saying we should ignore the canons, but we can't get wrapped up in them. At a high level, there are two types of canons - doctrinal & pastoral/organizational. Doctrinal canons concern just that - Church doctrine, which does not change and we should be ready to defend. These issues being discussed here are not doctrinal. Pastoral/organizational canons are just that, and as the chief pastor of the Diocese, the bishop really has the final say. We can't presume to know the pastoral considerations that go into his decisions. He may apply economia as he sees fit. If he wishes to ordain a 23 year old man, then that is his business - perhaps there is an urgent need for a priest at a mission parish. There is no threat to Church doctrine by his application of economia to the canon that requires a man to be 35.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

of course not. Just as quoting from the Bible is just fine. Your misinterpretation of the word tavern found in the Rudder for the word festival is your inadequate grasp of word definitions.

50th canon of the Council of Carthage (taverns):
Concerning the non-frequenting of taverns by the clergy, except when travelling. That the clergy are not to enter taverns for eating or drinking, nor unless compelled to do so by the necessity of their journey.


52nd Canon of Carthage (festivals/feasts):
Concerning the not having feasts under any circumstances in churches.
That no bishops or clerics are to hold feasts in churches, unless perchance they are forced thereto by the necessity of hospitality as they pass by. The people, too, as far as possible, are to be prohibited from attending such feasts.


Two separate canons.

Brian